Cleveland Development Discussions (Bolivar: Asians, policies, condition)

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by 216facts

Like any restaurant/retail, it will need market tested. But it is a good idea, a different idea, and worthy of investment and market test, IMO. There is decent parking underneath the bridge, BTW.

My memory is repeatedly driving around to find parking for Sokolowski's. I only vaguely remember the parking to which you are referring. I don't remember exactly how close it was to Sokolowski's nor the number of parking spaces. I am certain that I never parked there, either because it was full or deemed to inconvenient. I usually ended up parking on a street in the vicinity. Was that parking only added by the project that rebuilt the Innerbelt???

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by WRnative

Sokolowski's is far off the beaten path in Tremont. Given all of the other options in Tremont, I wonder how much the locals will patronize that complex AFTER the novelty has warn off, especially in the winter.


Like Sokolowski's, to be a success, my hunch is that the project will have to be a destination.

The location is 0.2 miles from Paralax and the South Side. 0.4 miles from Hi and Dry, Dante, and Glinko. Basically right off the 25 bus route, directrly on the towpath and 0.6 miles from the West 25th rapid station.

The locals patronize like 20 restaurants currently in Tremont. There are going to be a good deal of residents directly there too. It's not just a market thing, it's a neigborhood thing. I don't think you need to worry about where people who don't live in your neighborhood/city/county will park. They will come anyway because neighborhood-first neighborhoods are innately attractive to everyone. People concerned with parking at the establishment can go out in Strongsville or somewhere.

Honestly when I go to Tremont I just park anywhere I find a spot and don't really worry about where it is. The entire neighborhood is small and you're never that far away. Especially considering that Tremont is really for the young professional crowd at the end of the day.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

The location is 0.2 miles from Paralax and the South Side. 0.4 miles from Hi and Dry, Dante, and Glinko. Basically right off the 25 bus route, directrly on the towpath and 0.6 miles from the West 25th rapid station.

I remain skeptical that persons will walk that distance in Tremont to the Sokolowski's location, especially from Ohio City (passing up all of the Market District locations) and especially in winter. Given all of the cars at Sokolowski's, a large percentage of its customers drove there.


If the project is built as described, it may do well at first because many persons will want to check it out. It will be interesting to see how it fares a few years after opening.


Walking a fifth of a mile through Tremont is NOT the same as walking a fifth of a mile or more downtown or in New York. We'll see, and hopefully you are correct.

[216facts]

Originally Posted by WRnative

My memory is repeatedly driving around to find parking for Sokolowski's. I only vaguely remember the parking to which you are referring. I don't remember exactly how close it was to Sokolowski's nor the number of parking spaces. I am certain that I never parked there, either because it was full or deemed to inconvenient. I usually ended up parking on a street in the vicinity. Was that parking only added by the project that rebuilt the Innerbelt???

Yeah, I believe it is relatively new when they rebuilt the Innerbelt bridge. It offers very easy parking to the Cleveland script sign and then its a short walk to Sokolowki's. That area always seems to have decent traffic and tourists for the sign and views. So much potential in this area as they increase the hiking/biking opportunities and continue to build up residential. I would expect this restaurant site to do well, but like any restaurant/retail, it will have to continuously adjust to keep/increase its share of the market.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by WRnative

I remain skeptical that persons will walk that distance in Tremont to the Sokolowski's location, especially from Ohio City (passing up all of the Market District locations) and especially in winter. Given all of the cars at Sokolowski's, a large percentage of its customers drove there.


If the project is built as described, it may do well at first because many persons will want to check it out. It will be interesting to see how it fares a few years after opening.


Walking a fifth of a mile through Tremont is NOT the same as walking a fifth of a mile or more downtown or in New York. We'll see, and hopefully you are correct.

It is basically one residential block. If our definition of walkable is down to under 0.2 miles, then nothing is walkable. That's closer than the Rite Aid down the street from me. 0.2 miles is also the distance from the WSM parking lot to Nano Brew. IMO we are talking about a miniscule distance that certainly the overwhelming demographics in these areas don't notice.

I also would say that Ohio City and Tremont are not the same atmosphere. Ohio City is a much more high energy type place these days. Tremont is just a little more chill and laid back. On a given night, both don't always appeal to you simultaneously.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

It is basically one residential block. If our definition of walkable is down to under 0.2 miles, then nothing is walkable. That's closer than the Rite Aid down the street from me. 0.2 miles is also the distance from the WSM parking lot to Nano Brew. IMO we are talking about a miniscule distance that certainly the overwhelming demographics in these areas don't notice.

I also would say that Ohio City and Tremont are not the same atmosphere. Ohio City is a much more high energy type place these days. Tremont is just a little more chill and laid back. On a given night, both don't always appeal to you simultaneously.

Here's the thing. Unlike downtown, or even the Market District of Ohio City, I've never spent any time walking around Tremont. My impression always was that I didn't want to walk from the West Side Market down Abbey Ave. to Sokolowski's, because the area seemed sketchy. However, all of my impressions largely are rooted before the enhancement of the Towpath Trail (I have no idea of how much traffic now is on that trail, especially seasonally) and the Innerbelt project. On my visits to the Velvet Tango Room, much closer to the Market District than Sokolowski's, my definite impression was that I didn't want to be walking around that neighborhood after dark.



Perhaps persons living in Tremont are comfortable walking 0.2 miles (I will admit candidly that I didn't realize the distance was so short) to the Sokolowski's location, but my impression of that intervening area is that it is residential. My impression of Tremont, even as expressed by residents, is that it's a much safer neighborhood during daylight hours. The understaffing of the Cleveland police department also is a factor in my considerations.


Some day, as Tremont continues to gentrify, if lighting and security is improved, your vision will certainly become much more a reality, as it has in German Village in Columbus where persons walk a mile or more to restaurants in a once (several decades ago) sketchy neighborhood.


I will reiterate the certain reality that most of the clientele of Sokolowski's drove there.


While I have my reservations about the proposed project, I will be thrilled if I'm wrong. I'll check it out, likely also in winter on a Saturday afternoon to see if my concerns are valid. Climate change and rapidly moderating Cleveland winters certainly will aid outdoors-oriented projects.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by 216facts

Yeah, I believe it is relatively new when they rebuilt the Innerbelt bridge. It offers very easy parking to the Cleveland script sign and then its a short walk to Sokolowki's. That area always seems to have decent traffic and tourists for the sign and views. So much potential in this area as they increase the hiking/biking opportunities and continue to build up residential. I would expect this restaurant site to do well, but like any restaurant/retail, it will have to continuously adjust to keep/increase its share of the market.

The Hope Memorial Bridge greatly impairs the views of the Cleveland skyline from Tremont; what Tremont offers is great views of the Hope Memorial Bridge, especially when lighted after dark!



If I wanted a great view of Cleveland's skyline and the Flats on an after-dark walk, I would much, much prefer walking from East 4th St. to Ohio City's Market District on the pedestrian walkway on the north side of the Hope Memorial Bridge. And I could take the rail rapid from the West 25th Street station (which I also find creepy after dark) or a bus back to Public Square. I've never checked out the bus routes and frequency of the RTA bus routes between Tremont and the Market District, although I know they are centered on the West 25th St. station.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by WRnative

I will reiterate the certain reality that most of the clientele of Sokolowski's drove there.


While I have my reservations about the proposed project, I will be thrilled if I'm wrong. I'll check it out, likely also in winter on a Saturday afternoon to see if my concerns are valid. Climate change and rapidly moderating Cleveland winters certainly will aid outdoors-oriented projects.

You're definitely right about Sokolowski's main clientele driving there, since most of the people who went there were old Clevelanders who left the city. Establishments can't survive without local neighborhood support. The same thing happened to Sterle's in St. Clair, the Balaton on Shaker Square, etc. A mismatch of demographics and concept. But the Asian restaurants still dominate Asiatown because the two are in concert. Similarly, new development in Tremont should reflect the demographics of the nieghborhood.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

You're definitely right about Sokolowski's main clientele driving there, since most of the people who went there were old Clevelanders who left the city. Establishments can't survive without local neighborhood support. The same thing happened to Sterle's in St. Clair, the Balaton on Shaker Square, etc. A mismatch of demographics and concept. But the Asian restaurants still dominate Asiatown because the two are in concert. Similarly, new development in Tremont should reflect the demographics of the nieghborhood.

Most persons drive to Li Wah in Asia Plaza. It has a large parking lot, a shared lot with the Asian grocery and a spillover lot across the street from its main parking lot. I think you're grossly overemphasizing the importance of local business to restaurants, at least for large ones such as Li Wah.


I suspect most customers also drive to Superior Pho.


Sokolowski's didn't close due to a lack of business pre-COVID.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by WRnative

Most persons drive to Li Wah in Asia Plaza. It has a large parking lot, a shared lot with the Asian grocery and a spillover lot across the street from its main parking lot. I think you're grossly overemphasizing the importance of local business to restaurants, at least for large ones such as Li Wah.


I suspect most customers also drive to Superior Pho.


Sokolowski's didn't close due to a lack of business pre-COVID.

"After nearly 100 years in business, the Sokolowski Family has decided to list the property for sale," owners Bernie, Mary, and Mike Sokolowski said in a joint statement to 3News announcing the move to sell the property. "We firmly believe that there is going to be a significant amount of interest in the iconic location. However, we are ready to reopen the business if a suitable deal and buyer are not forthcoming. We do feel that the time is right for our family to now enjoy the fruits of our labor. Our hope is that there is a buyer that will be eager to continue to use this landmark property in a form that does justice to its past."

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/lo...6-d8116cd510bd

I have Asian friends in Asiatown, because there is a parking lot doesn't also mean the Asians that live in Asiatown don't walk there and are the majority of business, especially not on weekends.