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No. You completely disreqard the grace of God, as well as every scripture that shows eternal security. You have seen the passages that were provided, assuming you bothered to look. Legalism always rejects grace. It is the arrogant mind that thinks they can do anything to maintain their salvation.
Just so you know up front, I won't stoop to your level of name calling.
The passages you provide contradict other scripture that says one can lose their salvation. Either the bible contradicts itself, or one of us is wrong. I happen to believe it is you, because I am one who happens to take in what the whole scripture says, not just some.
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There is no contradiction. There are many who stand behind a pulpet and proclaim to be followers of Christ, but are in reality, of their father the devil, even if they consider themselves to be Christian. If you have added anything to faith when you believe in Christ, then you are not saved. There are many people who think they are saved but aren't because they didn't simply believe in Christ, but added something to that belief. Or they invited Christ into their heart. That does not provide salvation. Or they tried to make Christ Lord when they believed. That is another form of works.
I didn't say all the preachers on TV are unbelievers. The ones who claim to do miracles and do the phony healing are examples of those, who as mentioned in the Matthew 7:22 passage, are going to say to Christ, ''did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name cast out demons?'' But they didn't believe in Christ. Now, no one can look at someone and say for sure whether they are saved or not, because you don't have all the facts concerning that person. The point that I am making is that If a person has simply, without adding anything to faith, or distorting what the Bible says you must do; if that person has simply believed in Christ for salvation, then that person is saved. If he hasn't, then he remains under condemnation. But the person who is saved, will never lose his salvation.
If the legalist is trying to maintain salvation through works, then he probably added works to his faith in believing in Christ, and as a result, he is not saved.
Another contradiction. First you say all one must do is believe in Christ. Then you say, if one believes in Christ, but then, let's say, they also believe you must repent to be saved, they're not saved. But they believed...so why are they not saved? Because they don't agree with your interpretation?
"But they didn't believe in Christ"...how do you know? It does not say that anywhere. You're adding things.
The book of Romans reads...10:13"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
But Matthew says this... "7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Do they contradict one another or work together? They work together. One must call on His name AND do His will. He is the one who "shall be saved".
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The demons believe that Christ is God, but they are not depending on Christ for salvation. Whatever means of salvation the fallen angels had been offered in eternity past, was rejected by them.
There you go again. Which is it Mike? Do we only have to believe in Christ, or do we have to depend on Christ for salvation? If they reject it and therefore are not saved, does that mean we must accept it? But wait, that's more than just believing, that's a work, according to you. See how this goes around and around?
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No. That is completely unscriptural. A person can renounce Christ. But Christ will not renounce them. Your thinking is that of a legalist. Legalists always reject the grace of God, and assume that there is some part that they can and must play in maintaining their salvation. The Scriptures say otherwise. And some of those passages have already been presented.
Well, I'm sure there are some on here that now feel even safer knowing that they once believed, but renounced Christ, but according to you are still going to heaven. No, they wouldn't care, would they, since they don't believe in it anymore?
Luke 12...
8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
I realize this is probably speaking to those who have not ever confessed Him before men before. I believe the same principal applies. Even if you have confessed Him before men, but now deny Him, He will deny them as well.
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Salvation is always the same in any dispensation. Faith in Christ. The only difference is that we look back historically to the Cross, and people in the Old Testament looked forward to the future coming Messiah. The issue is always believe in Christ as He is presented in a given dispensation.
So you think all the people in the OT had to do, in their time, is look forward to the coming Messiah?
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As to King Saul, Samuel had been brought up from Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom, where Old Testament saints went when they die. And Samuel had told Saul that the next day, he would be with him in Abraham's bosom.
No. You added again. No where does it say he will be with him in Abraham's bosom. He said you'll be with me... meaning dead... and they were.
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I'm getting the impression you believe in soul sleep, which is another heresy.
You'd be wrong.
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No matter how clear the Bible makes something, there are always going to be people who disregard it, and pick and choose what makes them feel good, or comfortable, or for some other reason. Whether it's universalists, preterists, soul sleepers, legalists; whatever deviation from the truth it happens to be, you can present all the scripture there is to present to them, and they just won't believe it.
You are absolutely right, and you fall in this category. It's much easier to believe in once saved always saved than the truth.
Whether you want to believe it or not, Mike, everyone picks and chooses. You have when it comes to salvation. You take one verse that says we must believe and disregard all others that speak of salvation.
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If you are of such a nature that you think you can assist God in maintaining your salvation, then there is nothing anyone can say that will get through to you.
Nothing I can do can grant me salvation. Do I have to obey, or endure to the end? Yes, because that is what God says.
Mike, you do not know how bad I want to believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved, as I know many people who have turned their backs on God.
To believe it though, I have to believe that the scripture contradicts itself. There are too many verses speaking to Christians that speak of losing salvation.
But that is just it. The scriptures that people assume to say that you can lose your salvation, don't say that. If they did, then there would be a contradictiion.
Do this. Take every single verse that you think is saying that you can lose your salvation and google its meaning. You will come up with conflicting viewpoints of course, but give it serious study. And I will ask you again, to seriously study the link in the original post and investigate every verse, every passage that it lists.
God's nature does not allow Him to reject in terms of salvation, those who have at one time made the choice to believe in Christ. God does not disown family members. You may turn your back on God, and come under increasingly severe divine discipline as a result, but God will not cast you away. Consider it carefully. There is no place for fear in your relationship with God. And what a terrible burden to needlessly carry around with you.
I can understand the concern to want to make sure you are saved, but trying to put your oar in the water to help God row the boat, just doesn't do it.
Consider this. In Revelation 20:11-15 the unbeliever is there at the Great White Throne judgment. He is standing before Jesus Christ and is about to be cast into the lake of fire forever. But notice why he is going into the lake of fire. It is not because of sin. The reason is that sin was judged on the Cross and will never be an issue in salvation. The unbeliever is condemned on the basis of his works. You see, he rejected the work of Christ on the Cross on his behalf. And now since he can't be judged for sin, as Christ already died for all sin, he is being judged for his works. He is standing on his own works to save him, and God must reject all human good. Isa 64:6; Titus 3:5.
You are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
I don't know what else I can say. Just study and try to understand that the verses you think are telling you that you can lose your salvation, are saying something else. Judgment isn't always talking about eternal judgment, and salvation isn't always talking about the salvation of your soul, but rather, often is talking about your life on this earth.
Faith is not a gift. It is salvation that is the gift. Salvation comes as a result of your faith in Christ. The faith must come from you once you understand the issue of the Gospel.
Working out your salvation with fear and trembling has nothing to do with maintaining your eternal salvation. It has to do with spiritual production after you have been saved. IF you have trusted in the work of Christ on the Cross in paying the penalty for your sins you are saved. If you haven't, then you aren't.
A person who understands and is oriented to the grace of God, understands eternal security. A person with tendencies toward legalism will think that they must do something to maintain their salvation.
I don't know whether you actually made an effort to understand what was presented in my first three posts or not. But if not, then you might make the effort to understand the principle. If once having attained eternal life through faith in Christ, you could then lose it, then it wouldn't be eternal life. A person will believe what they want to believe, regardless of the facts. Part of growing spiritually is becoming oriented to the grace of God. One can not hang onto legalism and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
If you understood the principle of God's grace in 'Rebound', in simply naming your sins to God the Father for restoration to fellowship, then you should not have any trouble in understanding the principle of God's grace in salvation.
I know this thread is about OSAS, salvation . . .but as far as faith being a gift, I believe that based on:
"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not by works, so that no one may boast" (emphasis added). Faith is a gift from God, so that no one may boast. Or, as Romans 12:3 says, so that we will not think too highly of ourselves. The last bastion of pride is the belief that we are the originators of our faith.
Paul knew that the abundant grace of God was the source of his own faith. He said in 1 Timothy 1:13-14, "I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; but the grace of our Lord overflowed [for me] with the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." (author's translation emphasis added). He was an unbeliever, But then grace overflowed to him with faith.
Faith is a gift, I believe. Once Saved Always Saved . . . . I believe if you are "truly" saved . . .but accepting mentally/intellectually, that Jesus is Saviour . . . . is not salvation. Even the Demons Believe and are aware that Jesus is Lord . . . . . .Salvation is a process . . . . Not a one time decision to believe . . . . I know so many many many people, right here in my own family, who were once believers and lovers of Christ . . .and are now lovers of this world . . .and openly mock God . . . . and yes, they did display fruits at one time . . . go figure . . . . .
There are people who trusted the Work of Christ on the Cross . . . and now, have fallen away in action . . .
There is no such thing as a "decision" for Christ. It is by grace through faith in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8,9). Christ has done the work--securing our salvation. The Holy Spirit Himself will draw you to Christ and you will come to Him (John 16:13). There is no "maybe I will or maybe I wont." Because when the Holy Spirit Himself by the power of God makes salvation known to you you will come. (period) IF such is the case with a man you are secure and saved and a new creature you will NEVER go back (John 6:37). Because you have the Spirit dwelling in you (Eph 1:13,14)
So Christians don't decide to accept Christ? Seems to me a choice is made...
He just comes and takes you??? Sounds scary....lol
Rev.3:5: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Originally Posted by scgraham weren't satan and the fallen angels in good standing with god at one time? Once saved, but now doomed.
Originally Posted by lifesigns64
Good point . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lifesigns....salvation only happened when Christ came. Those under the burden of the law, rested, waiting for their redemption from Christ.
In Christ, profession of faith in Him, you are already resurrected, and will never lose that salvation.
I firmly believe in OSAS, and there is such thing as backsliding, and reprobate actions, as I engaged in after I professed my faith in Christ, but I firmly believe that I was always saved throughout that journey, and in that journey, I have arrived where I am now. Still saved.
This is from the heart, a circumcision of that spirit in us, and with that circumcision, comes sanctification, and if you are truly saved, from that area within ourselves, He will begin to lead you where He wants you.
You don't come to Christ, He comes to you, and begins His work, even if it as at rock bottom, and He will take you there again, as He did with me on several occasions, until you surrender once again to His will, as I have did.
.....many times over.
God bless you.
Stay busy in the Word!
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-23-2009 at 05:18 PM..
Reason: bad at typing
Just so you know up front, I won't stoop to your level of name calling.
You mean legalist? That's the definition of someone who depends on their works to save them.
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The passages you provide contradict other scripture that says one can lose their salvation. Either the bible contradicts itself, or one of us is wrong. I happen to believe it is you, because I am one who happens to take in what the whole scripture says, not just some.
Another contradiction. First you say all one must do is believe in Christ. Then you say, if one believes in Christ, but then, let's say, they also believe you must repent to be saved, they're not saved. But they believed...so why are they not saved? Because they don't agree with your interpretation?
I don't know why you are seeing a contradiction. I have said more than once that if you add anything to faith in Christ then you are not saved. I can't make it any more plain then that.
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"But they didn't believe in Christ"...how do you know? It does not say that anywhere. You're adding things.
The book of Romans reads...10:13"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
But Matthew says this... "7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Do they contradict one another or work together? They work together. One must call on His name AND do His will. He is the one who "shall be saved".
To believe in Christ IS to do the will of the Lord. Many will say Lord, Lord but will never have believed in Christ for salvation.
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There you go again. Which is it Mike? Do we only have to believe in Christ, or do we have to depend on Christ for salvation? If they reject it and therefore are not saved, does that mean we must accept it? But wait, that's more than just believing, that's a work, according to you. See how this goes around and around?
To believe in Christ means to depend on Him for salvation. I would think that would be obvious. You hear the Gospel, you understand it, you know that Christ died for your sins and rose again, and so you depend on His finished work on the Cross for your salvation. That is what believe means.
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Well, I'm sure there are some on here that now feel even safer knowing that they once believed, but renounced Christ, but according to you are still going to heaven. No, they wouldn't care, would they, since they don't believe in it anymore?
Luke 12...
8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:9 is talking about being denied rewards in Heaven at the Judgment seat of Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation.
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I realize this is probably speaking to those who have not ever confessed Him before men before. I believe the same principal applies. Even if you have confessed Him before men, but now deny Him, He will deny them as well.
So you think all the people in the OT had to do, in their time, is look forward to the coming Messiah?
They looked forward to the coming Messiah and depended on the work that He would do on their behalf.
This is all easily researched. But you have to want to do it.
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No. You added again. No where does it say he will be with him in Abraham's bosom. He said you'll be with me... meaning dead... and they were.
So I take it you do believe in soul sleep. One doctrinal error leads to another and another. Old Testament saints went to Paradise which was located in Hades in O.T. times. This is where both Samuel and Saul went to when they died.
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You'd be wrong.
You are absolutely right, and you fall in this category. It's much easier to believe in once saved always saved than the truth.
Whether you want to believe it or not, Mike, everyone picks and chooses. You have when it comes to salvation. You take one verse that says we must believe and disregard all others that speak of salvation.
Nothing I can do can grant me salvation. Do I have to obey, or endure to the end? Yes, because that is what God says.
You, like most people who either are Christian, or simply profess to be, are extemely ignorant of the word of God. And since you are becoming argumentative and are showing no desire to learn, I think I am done here.
Mike,
Not having read all the posts, the Bible does teach of the surety that we have of our salvation, but that doesn't negate that there are many warnings about losing the faith.
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