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Jorgy... I did answer that with a "yes" but then I read further on the the context where it gives a bit of an information about what's going on in aionion life and I gave you some comments about how I understand that description. It was additional information beyond a "yes" or "no". The verses I quoted are Jesus elaboriating on aionion life back in verse 16 aren't they?
So, in verse 16 you think the word translated into "eternal" means just that. Eternal... forever... without end...
Is that correct?
So, in verse 16 you think the word translated into "eternal" means just that. Eternal... forever... without end...
Is that correct?
I just want to make sure I don't misunderstand.
No you misunderstood. It does not mean "forever" or "everlasting" or "without end". What I agreed to is that aionion means the same thing throughout the two verses you quoted. I already stated that it is not describing a specific duration either finite or infinite in any of those verses.
Words do not mean "everlasting" in one sentence and "not everlasting" in another sentence in any language. Such an adjectvie would be utterly useless. I've already shown you passages where it can not mean "everlasting" so you should know why I do not believe it means "everlasting".
I think all Christians would agree with that statement Mike, nobody is arguing with you about that. It is only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ that salvation is possible.
But we, those who are intelligent and accountable before God, still have to individually qualify for a portion of his grace. We really will be JUDGED. And we'll be judged probably primarily by how well we kept the commandments of God that we knew, and how well we treated our fellow man during our mortal existence.
Faith, grace, and works are all vital elements of the processof preparing to meet God, of working out our salvation with fear and trembling, of enduring in good works while it's still our turn on earth.
That's how I see it. With respect for your right to believe whatever you will, I think your doctrine is poorly thought through, poorly supported in the scriptures because it's out of context as a whole, and ignores other conflicting scriptures. I think your doctrine is potentially dangerous, especially when it is aggressively promoted as the one and only ever for all time way to heaven, which is what you are doing on this board.
In my opinion any Christian who comes up with a package of beliefs and then publicly declares that other followers of Jesus Christ who don't accept that package are going straight to hell to burn there forever has some major problems to step back from for a while, and meditate and pray sincerely about with an open mind. Otherwise, in my opinion, they too become dangerous to the eternal well-being of those they try to deceive into believing exactly as they do.
It's ok to have strong beliefs. It's ok to respectfully proclaim those beliefs, even defend them in a civil manner. But in my opinion it's NOT ok for any professed Christian to judge others, compare them to their own current scholarly package of beliefs, and then loudly shout out to potentially tender hurting hearts that those who do not believe exactly as they do are not loved by God anymore and will soon be thrust down to hell forever regardless of how well they lived their lives or how God chooses to judge them Himself.
It is my opinion that you are walking dangerous ground Mike. Most people writing on this board in your threads recognize that, and most are trying to help you tone down your rhetoric that comes across as grossly arrogant, and get a better working understanding of what it really means to walk humbly and faithfully with love in our heart for all, our minds always open to added truth, the Holy Spirit always welcome inside our tabernacle; as Jesus Christ our Master, taught us we should do.
Humility and love evident for all is the true mark of, the bright light that shines from, a genuine follower of Jesus the Christ...
That's how I see it.
You do not qualify for grace. The entire point of grace is that God treats us on the basis of who and what He is. Not on the basis of who and what we are. Now, this is reqarding salvation. Eternal rewards on the other hand are a different matter. You must make continual choices and decisions to advance to spiritual maturity. As a result of growing up to the point of maturity, the believer will have blessings, rewards, and decorations, given to him at the judgment seat of Christ. Also, during the believers life on this earth, he will produce human good from his Old Sin Nature. These are rejected by Christ as wood, hay, and stubble. He will also, if and or when he is controlled by the Holy Spirit, through the principle of 1 John 1:9 produce divine good, which is accepted by Christ as gold,silver, and precious stones. These are rewardable at the judgment seat of Christ. 1 Cor. 3:12, 2 Cor. 5:10, Romans 14:10.
Two identical works. Example. A believer gives a glass of water to someone. On one occasion, this believer is in fellowship with God, and under the control of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This work is done by means of the Holy Spirit and will be rewarded as gold, silver, and precious stones at the Bema seat judgment. On a different occasion, this same believer gives a glass of water to someone. But on this occasion, he is out of fellowship because of unnamed sin in his life (a failure to utilize the principle of 1 John 1:9), and under the control of his Old Sin Nature. This makes his act human good. It came from him, instead of the Holy Spirit. It is therefore considered by Christ to be wood, hay, and stubble, and is rejected by Christ. That work will be burned up.
Nothing of mans works or efforts, absolutely nothing, will be allowed into Heaven. Only that which comes from God Himself will be allowed in Heaven. Isa. 64:6 ''For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment.
So even the works which are acceptable to God, that are produced in the believers life, aren't from him, they are from God. Divine good from the Holy Spirit versus human good from the old sin nature.
Regarding salvation and eternal condemnation, it is as simple as this.
John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in you sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''
Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.
Revelation 20:15 And if anyones name was not found written in the book the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul, but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal lake of fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.'' 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
I have no need to qualify my statements with ''in my opinion.'' I stand firmly on the Word of God. There is no safer ground than that. And I have no respect for any belief that contradicts the Word of God.
No you misunderstood. It does not mean "forever" or "everlasting" or "without end". What I agreed to is that aionion means the same thing throughout the two verses you quoted. I already stated that it is not describing a specific duration either finite or infinite in any of those verses.
Words do not mean "everlasting" in one sentence and "not everlasting" in another sentence in any language. Such an adjectvie would be utterly useless. I've already shown you passages where it can not mean "everlasting" so you should know why I do not believe it means "everlasting".
It can not mean “everlasting?â€
If you say that, then you must also say that it can not mean “everlasting†in this verse.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
“…God called us unto his eternal glory…â€
Do you even realize that by your reasoning, you are saying that God’s glory is not everlasting???
It’s the same word in both verses.
You just said that it can’t mean “everlasting†in one sentence, and “not everlasting†in another.
God’s glory is everlasting my friend. I hope you agree with that.
In Matthew 19:16 the exact same word is used. That would mean they are talking about eternal life. (everlasting, forever…)
You do not qualify for grace. The entire point of grace is that God treats us on the basis of who and what He is. Not on the basis of who and what we are. Now, this is reqarding salvation. Eternal rewards on the other hand are a different matter. You must make continual choices and decisions to advance to spiritual maturity. As a result of growing up to the point of maturity, the believer will have blessings, rewards, and decorations, given to him at the judgment seat of Christ. Also, during the believers life on this earth, he will produce human good from his Old Sin Nature. These are rejected by Christ as wood, hay, and stubble. He will also, if and or when he is controlled by the Holy Spirit, through the principle of 1 John 1:9 produce divine good, which is accepted by Christ as gold,silver, and precious stones. These are rewardable at the judgment seat of Christ. 1 Cor. 3:12, 2 Cor. 5:10, Romans 14:10.
That's a cute phrase but I think you are completely in error with your belief that works are not important. Though I believe that we are ultimately saved by grace, the Savior taught almost nothing except works. I don't think he even mentioned grace during his three year ministry. Your theory to me is astonishingly irrational considering that it came from scholars who at least usually pretend to be able to reason things out and reach logical conclusions.
The theory is so full of holes and the need for works is so evident in the scriptures that the scholars had to invent things like "rewards" and "decorations" that are apparently given immediately after judgment according to some kind of "rewardable" points system, some things earning points and sometimes the same things not earning points!
And meanwhile devotees such as yourself are saying that the moment you have that peak experience you write of you are guaranteed to go straight to heaven and I suppose there live in perfect harmony and happiness with God the Father and Jesus Christ regardless of how much of a sinner you became after you had that 'saving' experience. WHAT MORE COULD THERE BE THAN HEAVEN? If you're going straight to heaven what are those "decorations" and "rewards" and "blessings" all about at the point where in your belief all that could possibly happen is that you fly away to heaven? Wouldn't such a thing create some kind of class system in heaven where some are above others, some maybe even vying to sit at the Savior's right hand? But the scholars couldn't do away entirely with works so it seems that they had to invent something like the decorations thing!
I think it is utter folly to take a few verses from the scriptures and spin them into such a package as you present then condemn everyone to hell if they don't believe in it.
I imagine any child could tell stories about wood, hay, stubble etc. but scripture needs to be in harmony with the whole context. What are the other authors of books put into the bible saying about it? Why the contradicting verses that require such confusing and complex inventions as "decorations"? The scholars in whom you put your trust even had to invent the the strange notion that you and your fellow travelers don't even have to participate in the final "Great White" judgment, that's only for real sinners it seems...
Definition of "judgment": the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action(works) dictionary.com (Why bother with a judgment if works are not important? Why give decorations if works are not important? Why give commandments if works are not important?)
You still haven't told me why you think billions of Heavenly Father's children who lived through the ages and never had a chance to even hear about Jesus Christ should be thrust down to hell by a loving and just God.
If you say that, then you must also say that it can not mean “everlasting” in this verse.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
“…God called us unto his eternal glory…”
Do you even realize that by your reasoning, you are saying that God’s glory is not everlasting???
God’s glory is everlasting my friend. I hope you agree with that.
In Matthew 19:16 the exact same word is used. That would mean they are talking about eternal life. (everlasting, forever…)
Of course God's glory is everlasting. No, my reasoning does not say that God's glory is not everlasting.
You honestly don't see the fallacy in your logic? Does every adjective applied to God's glory have to mean everlasting? So if I said "God's magnificient glory" then "magnificent" must mean "everlasting" too? If I said the "sky is vast" does that mean "vast" means "blue" since the sky is blue? 2 Peter 1:17 says "For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory" does "excellent" also mean everlasting?
God is everlasting yet none of these adjectives applied to God mean everlasting.
almighty God
holy God
rightoeus God
mericful God
just God
immortal God
So why do these adjectives have to mean everlasting?
aionion God
God's aionion glory
Quote:
It’s the same word in both verses. You just said that it can’t mean “everlasting” in one sentence, and “not everlasting” in another.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
There are two facts easily observed in scripture.
1. aionion is applied to things everlasting
2. aionion is applied to things temporary
Therefore aionion can not mean "everlasting" or "temporary". Otherwise it means one thing in one sentence and it means the direct opposite in another sentence.
There are two facts easily observed in scripture.
1. aionion is applied to things everlasting
2. aionion is applied to things temporary
Therefore aionion can not mean "everlasting" or "temporary". Otherwise it means one thing in one sentence and it means the direct opposite in another sentence.
If you say it doesn't mean "everlasting" or "temporary," Then what do you say it means?
In other words, what do you say the definition of the word is?
Nothing of mans works or efforts, absolutely nothing, will be allowed into Heaven. Only that which comes from God Himself will be allowed in Heaven. Isa. 64:6 ''For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment.
So even the works which are acceptable to God, that are produced in the believers life, aren't from him, they are from God. Divine good from the Holy Spirit versus human good from the old sin nature.
I suppose that's why God commanded us to become perfect even as He is perfect, and then totally disregards and makes nothing of what we had to DO to become perfect? (But that "filthy rags" verse sure gets a lot of traction even though some interpretations of it are contradicted by many other verses of scripture.)
My belief is that the spirit body that inhabits our physical tabernacle was made/organized by God the Father in His own image and likeness and that we are thus literally the children of God.
Our brief mortal experience where we are tried and tested to see if we will be obedient to God's commandments and counsel even when it seems to us that He is not in the room, is a vital part of the 'growing up' learning and testing process in which by our choices we can become more like our Heavenly Parent, or less like Him.
Your statement, as usual, flies in the face of in this case what children have to do to grow up and become like their parents. Your statement makes it seem that our Heavenly Parent is the only one who is responsible for us becoming like Him. You appear to be part of the 'entitlement' generation that expects everything their parents have and right away without any effort put in by themselves...
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5: 48
You know what is so true about this statement? Is that you can read scripture about salvation and come up with eternal salvation. I can read scripture about it and come up with one can lose their salvation.
Everyone will claim to have the Holy Spirit guiding them as they study. Yet, we can both study the same Bible and come up with totally different conclusions.
I will believe mine and think you are completely wrong, and you will do the same about yours and me.
It's this way with a lot of doctrine.
I have been away for a while but you are totally right. The Holy Spirit is the one that will help you understand scripture. But the strange thing to me is, you have people that say, Jesus was only talking to them, and this does not apply to us. Yea, right, if Jesus says something, we can learn from His words.
The Holy Spirit has yet to tell me, don't listen to what Jesus said because that is not for you. That is what people are trying to say, today,which shows they are intrepreting the scripture their own way, and not of Gods.
If you say it doesn't mean "everlasting" or "temporary," Then what do you say it means?
In other words, what do you say the definition of the word is?
There are different opinions on that among universalists and also among translators, some of whom were probably not universalists, who do not translate it "eternal" or "everlasting".
The word itself is composed of aion (which clearly means "age") and the suffix -ios which means "of" or "pertaining to" in some way. So one view is that it means "of" "during" "though" or the ages.
I don't have a definitive opionion.
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