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I realize you aren't asking me but in looking at the verse..
I came across the Young's literal translation (YLT) version and it reads:
Mark 16:16 he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.
The use of "hath" here is interesting... I looked it up and the words here: believe, baptize, save, condemn.. should be all past tense.. yet most versions of the bible have believe in the present tense...
The greek verb for believe is an aortist active participle. This goes beyond just being past tense.
Here is an excerpt from Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions): Aorist Tense
"The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense. For example: "God...made us alive together with Christ." Eph 2:5
"He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6"
This indicates one-point-in-time action. So does that mean that this verse applies to those who it was written to.. or for all time. The verb forms of "saved" and "condemned" is future tense. So what do you make of that?
Young’s literal translation
Mar 16:16 he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.
Literal translation of the Holy Bible
Mar 16:16 The one believing and being baptized will be saved. And the one not believing will be condemned.
Kind of makes you wonder why Young changed it to “hath”
Because of our preconceived ideas of God we believe He's out to get us and interpret scripture through this concept of Him,we take words such as judgement,condemnation,wrath and destroying as being the end for those who come under them, as in sent to eternal torment.
We fail to see that God deals with man not destroy him but to discipline him and conform him , we as parent do not chastise or discipline our own children to destroy them but discipline for their own good.
Right here i addressed what youthink it says .
You are interpreting condemned as if it's the end for the lost .
Remember it's a trustworthy saying and worthy of full acceptance and what we labor and strive for that He is the Savior of All men.
I never said it was the end for the lost.
I will say the lost will wish it was the end when they end up in “everlasting punishment”
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
If the punishment is everlasting, that means they will never make it to heaven.
You know what jorgy there are brethren on here who can do a much better job of refuting what you said in this post than i could ever do . So hopefully my favorite theologians Ironmaw and Lego will take up the mantle and do so.
One day you will be beating yourself up for believing and attributing to God what we in this life would scorn at for doing such acts that you credit to God will be doing . Lord have mercy on us that we attribute to you the ways of man .
David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands ofmen." 1 Chronicles 21 : 13
Because the verb is aortic tense.... it should be believed not believing... believing is present tense... this is past (aortic) tense. That is why.
So the question is.. why wasn't the present tense (continuous or on-going action) used in the greek rather than aortic (past tense).
I guess I wasn't clear...
If you think there is no “ongoing action” for the condemnation, that would have to apply to the “will be saved” too.
I’m not really debating, just showing people who are just reading this what I believe to be the truth.
Here is where I get my information. You are more than welcome to post where you get your information for the readers.
Mar 16:16 The one believing and being baptized will be saved. And the one not believing will be condemned.
And remember people, those are the words of Jesus himself.
Believeth - Strong’s
G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Believeth - Thayer’s definition
G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4102
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849
You know what jorgy there are brethren on here who can do a much better job of refuting what you said in this post than i could ever do . So hopefully my favorite theologians Ironmaw and Lego will take up the mantle and do so.
One day you will be beating yourself up for believing and attributing to God what we in this life would scorn at for doing such acts that you credit to God will be doing . Lord have mercy on us that we attribute to you the ways of man .
David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands ofmen." 1 Chronicles 21 : 13
I don’t think I’ll be beating myself up.
Again, the words of Jesus.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There is a hell, and if people do not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, that is where they will end up.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There is a hell, and if people do not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, that is where they will end up.
You believe that because of a preconceived idea of the nature and character of God and your own interpretation of what the the scriptures say about His nature and character.
So tell me did you repent off your own back and did you open your own eyes ? or did God cause you to repent and did He open your eyes ?.
You believe that because of a preconceived idea of the nature and character of God and your own interpretation of what the the scriptures say about His nature and character.
So tell me did you repent off your own back and did you open your own eyes ? or did God cause you to repent and did He open your eyes ?.
Think about what you are saying in your answer .
Preconceived idea?
Why would you accuse someone of that when you don’t even know them?
Were you led by the Holy Spirit to make that statement?
I don’t think you were.
Why?
Because You have no idea who I am or what I have gone through in my life.
I used to have the preconceived ideas of an atheist. There have been a countless number of things that have happened in my life to change that.
God’s nature?
It is good and nothing but good.
And yes, God does cause me to repent and God does open my eyes. But there is a big difference between God “causing” and God “forcing”
God will not force us to do anything. Anyone who believes God forces us to do anything, they must be prepared to say that we do not have free will.
So, God causes me to repent, but I still repent of my own free will.
God leads all believers to himself. God gets all the glory in everything. I can do nothing without him.
But I am not a puppet that God controls.
If everyone went to heaven, we would all be puppets.
If we were all puppets, everyone would go to heaven.
Either way you phrase it, it doesn’t fit Scripture.
Preconceived idea?
Why would you accuse someone of that when you don’t even know them?
Were you led by the Holy Spirit to make that statement?
I don’t think you were.
Why?
Because You have no idea who I am or what I have gone through in my life.
I used to have the preconceived ideas of an atheist. There have been a countless number of things that have happened in my life to change that.
God’s nature?
It is good and nothing but good.
And yes, God does cause me to repent and God does open my eyes. But there is a big difference between God “causing” and God “forcing”
God will not force us to do anything. Anyone who believes God forces us to do anything, they must be prepared to say that we do not have free will.
So, God causes me to repent, but I still repent of my own free will.
God leads all believers to himself. God gets all the glory in everything. I can do nothing without him.
But I am not a puppet that God controls.
If everyone went to heaven, we would all be puppets.
If we were all puppets, everyone would go to heaven.
Either way you phrase it, it doesn’t fit Scripture.
You are right God will force no one .
So When the scriptures say Every knee shall bow andd Every tongue confess will confess i hope you do not think God is forcing them to do so
Philippians 2 ; 9
So if He saves everybody we are puppets ? This statement proves that you really do not believe that God is in control , you really believes He saves some and not others.
God leads believers to himself what a joke , you say salvation is of God but you really believe it had something to do with yourself . God leads sinners to Himself , by revealing Himself to them.
This is why He is God , this is why He's wonderful.
How can you possibly believe that it's God that causes us to repent ,when you believe in free will ? . It's impossible.
Last edited by pcamps; 12-03-2009 at 09:10 PM..
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