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The trick it seems, according to those who put their trust in the arbitrary doctrine promoted by the op (some call it "dangerous") is to have first been "saved" according to their definition.
Once you've uttered those words in the right place (if I understand correctly how it works) then it seems to matter not what you do or what you believe. According to them you have no further choice in the matter of where you get to spend eternity, God will take away your agency and FORCE you to heaven. (If I understand the op's position correctly.)
It's not the words spoken but what's in your heart. Nobody on earth can discern what's in the heart. Only Christ from heaven is able to see the heart. He knows when there is true belief in one's heart - and He follows up by sending that person the Holy Spirit, which seals the person for eternal life in heaven w/ God. I will give Scripture references if needed.
It's not the words spoken but what's in your heart. Nobody on earth can discern what's in the heart. Only Christ from heaven is able to see the heart. He knows when there is true belief in one's heart - and He follows up by sending that person the Holy Spirit, which seals the person for eternal life in heaven w/ God. I will give Scripture references if needed.
Wow, that 'once saved' doctrine really has me confused!
So what you are saying about it is that nobody knows if anyone has ever been "once saved" except Christ?
If so, what's the big deal about OSAS then? Why is your doctrine any different than what other Christians believe about salvation? Or is it that you just command God to eliminate the final post mortal judgment by Jesus Christ as not being necessary because according to your belief he has already once and for all taken care of that during the mortal lifetime of the people in your particular group of believers?
Why believe OSAS if you don't even get the comfort (recklessness/dangerous illusion?) that you are already saved regardless of how many more sins you commit, but only Christ would know for sure?
Your doctrine just doesn't make sense to me.
Feel free to provide your scriptures but I can pretty much guarantee that there are possibly many other interpretations/understandings of the very same scriptures that would logically be just as valid as yours.
If a person has believed in Christ for salvation, and then later renounces Christ, he is still saved. You cannot walk away from your salvation. Once you are saved, God does not reject you for any reason. You can lose rewards at the Judgment seat of Christ, but you can never lose your eternal relationship with God. It is in His hands. Not yours....
Please list some of those "rewards" that you believe can be lost during your final judgment.
And why even have a final judgment if in your belief you've already been judged and been irrevocably (regardless of what sins you may commit later) saved to heaven at a certain minute of a certain day sometime during your mortal life?
One can't lose their salvation if it was a true repentance from the heart and mind,when we do wrong we are convicted by the Holy Spirit,but the Lord only knows the true heart of an individual.
“But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has DENIED THE FAITH, and is WORSE THAN AN UNBELIEVER.” 1 Tim. 5:8
“...keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.” 1 Tim. 1:19
“He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My father, and before His angels.” Rev. 3:5
“And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no firm root; they BELIEVE for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.” Luke 8:13
Jesus says they believed. Paul said those who believe became saved, (Acts 16:31) Therefore, these people were at one time saved. They also later “fell away.” Fell away from what? From their salvation, of course!
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:6
“You have been SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have FALLEN FROM GRACE.” Galatians 5:4
“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men...but *whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit NEVER HAS FORGIVENESS, but is guilty of an ETERNAL SIN.” Mark 3:28,29
“For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will NOT FORGIVE YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS.” Matthew 6:14,15“Every one who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” 1 John 3:15
Wow, that 'once saved' doctrine really has me confused!
So what you are saying about it is that nobody knows if anyone has ever been "once saved" except Christ?
I guess I did not word my post very well.
Each individual person should have assurance for himself/herself. I don't know anyone's else's heart. I can make my own judgment whether or not others others are saved by their testimony - but ultimately I don't know for sure.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
Or is it that you just command God ...
I don't command God to do anything.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
Why believe OSAS if you don't even get the comfort (recklessness/dangerous illusion?) that you are already saved regardless of how many more sins you commit, but only Christ would know for sure?
I know for myself that I am saved regardless of what I do. However, part of being saved is giving up my own earthly desires to be like Christ. Some days are better than others - but the goal is to be more like Him as time moves on.
One can't lose their salvation if it was a true repentance from the heart and mind,when we do wrong we are convicted by the Holy Spirit,but the Lord only knows the true heart of an individual.
So why would God even provide us with commandments, tell us we're imperfect and all of us sinners, tell us about repentance and command us to repent of our sins, tell us about the importance of doing good works, tell us about ordinances such as baptism, and have a final judgment after death if none of that mattered at all, that all we need do is utter some phrase in front of some preacher in some place sometime and then we are free to do whatever we want to do for the rest of our mortal lives with no eternal consequences for our choices to engage in sinful behavior whatsoever, we're SAVED and going to HEAVEN in spite of a lifetime of sin because we uttered that phrase and at the time really meant it too?
With repect for your right to believe whatever you want to believe, to me your doctrine seems to be reckless, careless, and dangerous for those concerned with living a life that is good enough to merit being on the right hand of God, a sheep instead of a goat, wheat instead of tares, among those with oil in their lamps, when we finally get to the judgment bar of Jesus Christ.
Last edited by justamere10; 11-24-2009 at 04:54 PM..
....I know for myself that I am saved regardless of what I do. However, part of being saved is giving up my own earthly desires to be like Christ. Some days are better than others - but the goal is to be more like Him as time moves on. Sorry for the confusion.
No problem, you present as being a sincere follower of Jesus Christ and striving for perfection.
But I don't know why you or any other believer in OSAS would be motivated to strive to be a better person. Within your doctrine there is absolutely no need to live like Christians are admonished by the Lord to live. Within your doctrine you're already saved and forced to go to heaven. What greater reward could you possibly be aiming for by striving to become more like God?
If you're already certain that you've been judged favorably and finally by the Lord and there's nothing you (or God) can do to change that, why not just sin and live a life of pleasure, ignore all of God's commandments, cheat on your spouse, eat, drink and be merry for the rest of your days, it doesn't really matter now does it?
Or is it possible that you may have been deceived into letting your guard down?
(To be fair though, I am aware of a doctrine known to some as having one's "calling and election made sure". But that's very different from the OSAS doctrine as I understand it.)
Last edited by justamere10; 11-24-2009 at 04:55 PM..
The good news of the Gospel (does that sound familiar?):
Rom 8:32 He who indeed His own Son did not spare, but for us all did deliver him up, how shall He not also with him the all things grant to us?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay a charge against the choice ones of God? God is He that is declaring righteous,
The Gospel (good news) again reminds us that:
Rom 8:34 who is he that is condemning? Christ is He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God--who also doth intercede for us.
Can anything (including ourselves) separate us from Christ?:
Rom 8:38 for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, Rom 8:39 nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Our eternal security rests in the finished work of Christ presented to us in the Gospel, not ourselves.
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