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How about spending eternal life with heavenly Father for one....forever in eternal darkness.
Faith not works my Mormon friend. All who rely on works will not be allowed into heaven. Why not?
Romans 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."
Even the demons believe . . .what do you do with your faith . . . if it is a GENUINE faith, a true sincere faith . . . and if the Holy Spirit dwells in the person with faith . . . you will see their fruits . . . . and remember the words of the bible . . . FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD . . . . works will not earn us salvaton . . . but WORKS, our actions, our thoughts, our dealings, or relationship with God and people . . . are a result of faith . . . it is not enough just to believe . . . I believe the sky is blue . . . . I believe my kids are gorgeous . . I believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead . . . he is the King of Kings .. . so what?? . . . Do we just have intellectual faith . . . or a real faith . . . which produces good works and fruits . . .
Even the demons believe . . .what do you do with your faith . . . if it is a GENUINE faith, a true sincere faith . . . and if the Holy Spirit dwells in the person with faith . . . you will see their fruits . . . . and remember the words of the bible . . . FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD . . . . works will not earn us salvaton . . . but WORKS, our actions, our thoughts, our dealings, or relationship with God and people . . . are a result of faith . . . it is not enough just to believe . . . I believe the sky is blue . . . . I believe my kids are gorgeous . . I believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead . . . he is the King of Kings .. . so what?? . . . Do we just have intellectual faith . . . or a real faith . . . which produces good works and fruits . . .
I believe that the faith James spoke of was faith that needs to be justified through works before man, not God. God sees the heart.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.
Even the demons believe . . .what do you do with your faith . . . if it is a GENUINE faith, a true sincere faith . . . and if the Holy Spirit dwells in the person with faith . . . you will see their fruits . . . . and remember the words of the bible . . . FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD . . . . works will not earn us salvaton . . . but WORKS, our actions, our thoughts, our dealings, or relationship with God and people . . . are a result of faith . . . it is not enough just to believe . . . I believe the sky is blue . . . . I believe my kids are gorgeous . . I believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead . . . he is the King of Kings .. . so what?? . . . Do we just have intellectual faith . . . or a real faith . . . which produces good works and fruits . . .
Never said anything about fruits of faith that a believer produces. Our works is not to show our worthiness as what the LDS wants to say. As Jesus was asked:
John 6:28
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do theworks Godrequires?"
I believe that the faith James spoke of was faith that needs to be justified through works before man, not God. God sees the heart.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.
Hi Alabama . . you believe what James was speaking of was faith that needs to be justified through works before man, not God. I don't agree with this, although I do agree that God see and knows the heart.
I am not saying tht we are justified by Faith, but Faith Without Works, in God's eyes must be dead . . . because Faith produces . . .
What does the Bible teach about salvation? Abraham was justified by works? Romans four, is that what it says? "Abraham was justified by what...? "Faith." Abraham was not justified by works. Romans chapter three says, "No man is justified by works. By the deeds of the law shall..." what? "No flesh be justified," none. There is no way that we can be justified. In Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.â€
Can faith save him? James is looking at this from the stand point of evaluation. He is looking at a man who says, "I have faith!" And he is saying, all right if you have true saving faith then I ought to see some evidence of it, right? “By their fruits you shall...†what? "...know them.â€
He is simply saying, if your faith is genuine then it’s going to manifest itself. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old thing are passed away and behold all things become...†what?"…new.†There is going to be a manifestation. And so he says, what kind of faith have you got my friend, I don’t see any evidence?
One kind of faith is the faith that doesn’t have any works and it is dead faith and the other faith is the faith that produces something and its living faith. One saves and one doesn’t. That’s what he is saying, "Oh," but he says "I believe, I believe," "Yeah," he says, "The devils believe and they tremble." It’s not enough to believe unless that believing results in an act of commitment to Christ that results in a changed life that bears fruit. That’s his whole point in my humble opinion . . . and believe me, I was a stauch Once Saved Always Saved person at the beginning of my walk with Christ.
Hi Alabama . . you believe what James was speaking of was faith that needs to be justified through works before man, not God. I don't agree with this, although I do agree that God see and knows the heart.
I am not saying tht we are justified by Faith, but Faith Without Works, in God's eyes must be dead . . . because Faith produces . . .
What does the Bible teach about salvation? Abraham was justified by works? Romans four, is that what it says? "Abraham was justified by what...? "Faith." Abraham was not justified by works. Romans chapter three says, "No man is justified by works. By the deeds of the law shall..." what? "No flesh be justified," none. There is no way that we can be justified. In Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.â€
Can faith save him? James is looking at this from the stand point of evaluation. He is looking at a man who says, "I have faith!" And he is saying, all right if you have true saving faith then I ought to see some evidence of it, right? “By their fruits you shall...†what? "...know them.â€
He is simply saying, if your faith is genuine then it’s going to manifest itself. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old thing are passed away and behold all things become...†what?"…new.†There is going to be a manifestation. And so he says, what kind of faith have you got my friend, I don’t see any evidence?
One kind of faith is the faith that doesn’t have any works and it is dead faith and the other faith is the faith that produces something and its living faith. One saves and one doesn’t. That’s what he is saying, "Oh," but he says "I believe, I believe," "Yeah," he says, "The devils believe and they tremble." It’s not enough to believe unless that believing results in an act of commitment to Christ that results in a changed life that bears fruit. That’s his whole point in my humble opinion . . . and believe me, I was a stauch Once Saved Always Saved person at the beginning of my walk with Christ.
The reason I don't think works justify our faith before God is that our faith comes from God to begin with. However, the faith that does justify us before God is not our own faith, but the faith (or faithfulness) of Jesus:
(Rom 3:22) and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
(Rom 3:26) for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus.
(Gal 2:16) having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'
(Gal 3:22) but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.
Anyway, just my opinion. I do know and respect that others will have various thoughts and opinions different from mine .
The reason I don't think works justify our faith before God is that our faith comes from God to begin with. However, the faith that does justify us before God is not our own faith, but the faith (or faithfulness) of Jesus:
(Rom 3:22) and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
(Rom 3:26) for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus.
(Gal 2:16) having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'
(Gal 3:22) but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.
Anyway, just my opinion. I do know and respect that others will have various thoughts and opinions different from mine .
Hey Alabama, respect you opinion, but don't see it the way you do . . .although I will go back and read it one more time . . I can always learn something . . .and be open to trying to see what other's see, thanks, Lifesigns64
Hey Alabama, respect you opinion, but don't see it the way you do . . .although I will go back and read it one more time . . I can always learn something . . .and be open to trying to see what other's see, thanks, Lifesigns64
Same here my friend. I take to heart your posts also and have learned much from them
No problem, you present as being a sincere follower of Jesus Christ and striving for perfection.
But I don't know why you or any other believer in OSAS would be motivated to strive to be a better person. Within your doctrine there is absolutely no need to live like Christians are admonished by the Lord to live. Within your doctrine you're already saved and forced to go to heaven. What greater reward could you possibly be aiming for by striving to become more like God?
1. Out of gratitude
2. Fear of judgment - believers will be subject to the fire - good works will stand the test - bad works/sin will be burned up and we will suffer loss (1 Cor. 3:10-15).
3. A Christlike life will attract others to the faith.
4. I have been bought with a price. I am not my own.
5. God can make one's existence miserable - He will discipline His children (Heb. 12:5-11).
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10
If you're already certain that you've been judged favorably and finally by the Lord and there's nothing you (or God) can do to change that, why not just sin and live a life of pleasure, ignore all of God's commandments, cheat on your spouse, eat, drink and be merry for the rest of your days, it doesn't really matter now does it?
See 1 thru 5 above.
Rom. 6 specifically deals with that question. I did a study on that elsewhere on the web. I will dig it up and post it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10
Or is it possible that you may have been deceived into letting your guard down?
If I am honest and straightforward, and am not solely trying to defend a particular viewpoint - I don't have to worry about being deceived.
Wow! Mike your starting to sound like me when I was branded a bad dude here on CDCF
You have no idea how disgusted I am with the things that so called Christians believe. The vast majority of Christians don't know straight up from straight down with regard to the word of God. If the majority of the people who post on this forum are a microcosm, if they are representative of Christians in this country as a whole, and unfortunately they are, it shows not only how uninterested believers are in coming to a knowledge and understanding about God and about His plan, and why we are here on this earth, but it also shows how well Satan has implimented his policy of deception in distorting the truth about God.
And yes, God allows this to occur, because it comes down to this. ''And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.'' Jeremiah 29:13.
God allows those who are lukewarm, those who don't care, who aren't really interested, those who say ''thanks God for saving me, but don't bother me now, because I have things to do, and I'll see you in Heaven,'' God allows those people to be deceived by the god of this world. Just as He doesn't force anyone to believe in Christ for salvation, neither does He force a believer to grow up spiritually. In fact, God will Himself send strong delusion on people who reject the truth in order that they may believe a lie.
The issue in salvation is to believe in Christ for salvation. The issue for the believer is to grow up spiritually. The sad fact is that in the history of the human race, most people will not believe in Christ for salvation, and most people who do believe in Christ will not choose to grow up spiritually to the point of maturity.
But that is just the way it is. And so, I will present information on this forum for the benefit of those who do care, and as for the rest, they are quite free to think whatever they want. I don't care what people think, I care about what God thinks.
So... so... let me get this straight. I used to be a devout though immature and impressionable Christian, neatly ensconced in The United Church of Canada. I went to services, attended Sunday School as a kid, and prayed to God from time to time. I believed, when I found it believable. Which, as an impressionable kid who was fed a lot of fear-inducing stories, was easily accomplished by the Church.
Later, when I matured and then attended University, and also started to ask the youth pastor some tricky questions he obviously didn't like, I started to think it through for myself, and therefore I started to turn away. Even later, after several more degrees, most importantly in biology, evolution, genetics, geology, and other key natural sciences, I started reading in earnest and (snipping myself to avoid boring you all..) I completely turned away from Christianity. Indeed, from any organized, mandated, heavily strictured "No Questions Allowed nor Answered" religion.
So. I'm still going to heaven, even though I've been a persistently boisterous practicing and preaching atheist for over 45 of my 62 years?
Wow. Easy Street! Thanks for this!
If, and I stress IF, you once depended on Christ for salvation, which is what to believe in Christ means, then yes you are still saved and will go into the presence of the Lord the moment you depart from this life. If you didn't ever believe, if you didn't understand what Christ acomplished on the Cross on your behalf and depend on what He did, so that you could be saved through faith in Him, then you are not saved. Only God and you yourself know what you once believed.
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