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I should not have used the word 'Accepted' in the title, as it implies the meaning of inviting Christ into your heart for salvation, which is blasphemous. The spiritually dead unbeliever is not in a position to invite Christ anywhere. The concept of inviting Christ into the heart for salvation, is works and is therefore contrary to grace, and results in not being saved. The issue is exactly what the Bible says it is. ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.'' Acts 16:31.
Why do people believe that "accepting", "repenting", "confessing", "being baptized", etc are works, but that "believing" is not? That has never made any sense to me. There is still something we have "to do", even when you believe all we have to do is "believe".
Mike, please explain what you believe these verses to mean:
2 Peter 2:20
"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
Revelation 3:5
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."
Faith is a gift, but we must continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling . . .
Faith is not a gift. It is salvation that is the gift. Salvation comes as a result of your faith in Christ. The faith must come from you once you understand the issue of the Gospel.
Working out your salvation with fear and trembling has nothing to do with maintaining your eternal salvation. It has to do with spiritual production after you have been saved. IF you have trusted in the work of Christ on the Cross in paying the penalty for your sins you are saved. If you haven't, then you aren't.
A person who understands and is oriented to the grace of God, understands eternal security. A person with tendencies toward legalism will think that they must do something to maintain their salvation.
I don't know whether you actually made an effort to understand what was presented in my first three posts or not. But if not, then you might make the effort to understand the principle. If once having attained eternal life through faith in Christ, you could then lose it, then it wouldn't be eternal life. A person will believe what they want to believe, regardless of the facts. Part of growing spiritually is becoming oriented to the grace of God. One can not hang onto legalism and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
If you understood the principle of God's grace in 'Rebound', in simply naming your sins to God the Father for restoration to fellowship, then you should not have any trouble in understanding the principle of God's grace in salvation.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
No man can take my salvation away. There is nothing I can do to make you lose your salvation, Mike. However, you can give it up if you so choose. Just as I can.
There are many on this board who will give you their testimony that they believed in Jesus and lived a Christian life for many years, yet now do not believe in Him nor the Bible, or the Father, or any of it. They're still saved?
Faith is a gift, but we must continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling . . .
I agree with you about the fear and trembling. There is still much to be done after we accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Redeemer. As I see it, baptism is just the beginning of, the doorway to, a lifetime in which God expects us as Christians to demonstrate enduring faith in Christ, obedience to His commandments, speedy repentance when we fall, and the expression of love by frequent good works.
Sin is real, it's disobedience to God. We all sin sometimes, only the Christ was sinless. But according to the doctrine espoused in the op if I understand it correctly, there is no such thing as sin once one has pronounced that apparently once in a lifetime statement at some church altar somewhere. (Or at least no such thing as eternal consequences for sin?)
But then, I'm not even sure what the op means by "saved" or "salvation" either so it's difficult to discuss. Maybe he's just talking about membership in a certain church or acceptance among an exclusive group of like believers if one utters that required sentence in an acceptable environment? Within the op's doctrine, what are the words that make up that seemingly magic sentence that one must utter, and who else has to be there in order for the words once said to result in guaranteed "salvation" with no further effort whatsoever?
With respect for everyone's right to believe as they will and to worship as they will, to me that 'once saved always saved' doctrine (as I understand it) is not even logical. It's like believing that if a child is coached to mouth a certain magic sentence, from that point on the child can choose to be disobedient to everything the parents tell him/her to do or not do, entirely disregard the parents' counsel and advice for the rest of the child's life, and there will be no negative consequences whatsoever, just huge rewards, the parents obviously expecting the child to turn out to be just like they are with no further effort on the child's part.
But I must misunderstand the doctrine, it seems illogical to me, just a pasting together of certain verses of scripture while totally ignoring the many other verses that are completely contradictory...
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
No man can take my salvation away. There is nothing I can do to make you lose your salvation, Mike. However, you can give it up if you so choose. Just as I can.
There are many on this board who will give you their testimony that they believed in Jesus and lived a Christian life for many years, yet now do not believe in Him nor the Bible, or the Father, or any of it. They're still saved?
If a person has believed in Christ for salvation, and then later renounces Christ, he is still saved. You cannot walk away from your salvation. Once you are saved, God does not reject you for any reason. You can lose rewards at the Judgment seat of Christ, but you can never lose your eternal relationship with God. It is in His hands. Not yours. Once you have believed in Christ for salvation, God the Father imputes His very own righteousness to you, and then pronounces you justified. No matter what you do, God sees only His righteousness in you. As a believer, you are placed into union with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit and you are sealed unto the day of redemption as a pledge, a guarantee of your eternal security. Eph 4:30
You can and do come under divine discipline in time through continued disobedience to God, even to the point of being taken out of this life by God under the sin unto death. But that believer is still saved. The discipline of the believer is a family matter.'' For whom the Lord loves, He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.'' Hebrews 12:6.
I would ask you to go back and study what I presented, including the links, in my previous posts in this thread.
This post is a good springboard to point out some things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ
"You will know them by their fruits". -Jesus
Anyone can say they are "saved". Belief and submission to the King are different than a magic prayer said once upon a time in church. But if you ask those who live like they know no King, "are you a Christian?", they will answer, "why yes I am. I said a prayer once."
So to preach the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" is dangerous because there are many that Jesus never knew, even though they thgouht they knew Jesus.
Though the doctrine is true, the delivery is false. Only Jesus Christ can declare a person "saved". Once you are saved, there is no turning back. But there are millions who believe they are saved because some layman preacher told them they were, or they read it on a board, like this.
The last paragraph is important - only Jesus can declare a person "saved". This is true - but how does Jesus make this declaration? By sending believers the Holy Spirit.
John 7:38-39 - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' " But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Eph. 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Acts 2:38-39 - Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." (This is not baptism in water, but identification w/ Christ)
So when we believe Christ sends us the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit baptizes us into (identifies us with) the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
Anyone can say they have the Holy Spirit, because we can't see Him. But how do you know a person for sure has the Holy Spirit?
Rom. 8:16 - The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
1 John 5:10 - The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
The Holy Spirit testifies with the spirit of each believer concerning the truth of the gospel. So what I do is ask the person 'how does he/she get to heaven?' Or 'how does this person know for sure if he/she is saved?'
The answer does not have to exact - but it should contain something about Christ's death, the person's sin, and new life in Christ - or just quote 1 John 5:11-12. That's the testimony.
If someone refers to their good works, or that their mother was saved, then the testimony is not in them.
1 Cor. 6 says that we have been bought with a price. We are not our own. We are part of the body of Christ - so we cannot remove ourselves from the body any more than a pancreas can remove itself from a human body.
Why do people believe that "accepting", "repenting", "confessing", "being baptized", etc are works, but that "believing" is not? That has never made any sense to me. There is still something we have "to do", even when you believe all we have to do is "believe".
Mike, please explain what you believe these verses to mean:
2 Peter 2:20
"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
Revelation 3:5
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."
Not to mention the two verses Bud and Life used.
The question that was asked by Bud pertaining to Hebrews 6:4 was answered in post #5.
The question asked by Lifesigns was already addressed by this entire thread. You are saved by one simple act of faith in Christ.
Regarding the verses you presented:
2 Peter 2:20 is not about losing your salvation. It is simply about temporal punishment, and reaping what you sow as a believer. Once you, as a believer have attained some degree of spiritual growth, and then have fallen away from it, you are like a dog going back to its own vomit. It becomes harder to again make an advance to spiritual maturity.
Matthew 7:21 is also not about losing your salvation. Rather, it is talking about the fact that there are those who profess to be Christians but who are really not. You need look no further than the Christian TV channel or whatever it's called to see the preachers performing their fake miracles and healings and casting out of demons.
The one who does the will of the Father is the one who has believed in Christ for salvation. It is that person who is saved.
Revelation 3:5 ''He who overcomes'' is he who has believed in Christ for salvation. And his name will not be blotted out of the book of life. There is also another sense to be applied to 'overcoming'. There are degrees of reward in Heaven given at the judgment seat of Christ. There will be no equality in the eternal state. Some believers will have great rewards and decorations, and surpassing grace blessings, that far exceed the normal blessings of eternity. Refer to I Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10 concerning the Bema Seat judgment. Look at 2 Tim. 4:7-8. This is Pauls hope of reward as represented by the crown of righteousness. It is not about salvation.
Being Erased from the Book of Life? Revelation 3:5 (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1989/89may3.html - broken link)
You can see by reading 1 Samuel chapter 28:19 that King Saul never lost his salvation, but died and joined Samuel in Paradise, or Abrahams Bosom. If you're not familiar with the way that king Saul had fallen away from the word of the Lord, then read the entire book of 1 Samuel.
For anyone who did not read the link in the first post, here it is again. Try to absorb and understand all that is being said regarding the eternal security of the believer, and set aside the legalistic tendencies that cause a person to think that they are somehow responsible for maintaining their salvation.
If you have made the most important decision you will ever make in your life; the decision to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, then rest assured that you can never for any reason, lose your salvation. Just as you did nothing to earn salvation, neither can you do anything to maintain your salvation. It is God who guarantees your eternal security, not you or your efforts. Not only is it blasphemous to think that you can do something that would cause you to lose your eternal life, but it is an unnecessary burden to carry around with you. One simple nonmeritorious act of faith in Christ secures your relationship with God forever. With that in mind, I present this link which explains the principle which underlies eternal security. Please read and understand.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Your OP is merely an echo of the original lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. "Don't worry Eve - even if you disobey God's commandment "YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE"
Here is God's opinion:
Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
HK
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