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German vehicles are often problematic, expensive to repair, overpriced, overly-complicated, and lacking in reliability. The quality of the CURRENT American vehicles (for the most part) either eclipses or equals the quality of their German counterparts. For years the likes of BMW and Mercedes had no real competition from American manufacturers and became complacent in their positions...that came to bite them in the ass when Cadillac started producing the 2nd generation CTS and CTS-V that absolutely trounced the Germans in luxury, reliability, performance, and quality. With the introduction of the new ATS, I think BMW and to a less extent, Mercedes are going to be forced to step up their game.
Competition in the market forces automakers to produce better vehicles, the 3-Series has basically been selling on price and name recognition for many years now and finally they have a worthy competitor from America.
Like you said, German vehicles are just another segment of vehicles. Some love them, some hate them.
I've experienced the CTS and it doesn't quite stack up to its German competition in my opinion and probably not some of the Asian brands, but it's close and a great car. The ATS seems it will be even better. The CTS-V, I will give you, does trump all others in raw power. You praise the ATS, yet say the 3-series relies on its name and image. Doesn't that contradict the fact Cadillac built a car directly gunning for the 3-series? The 3-series and BMW and Germany are its inspiration.
But no, my comments don't contradict each other. I meant what I said. But I was just saying, some Americans "ew ah" about German cars as if they are truly exotic or something. They're just mainstream cars, but certainly the alpha of the mainstream and leaders of the pack.
Reliability? You're right, German cars can be picky and need to be primped, but are the best overall experience and quality. I don't think for a second the CTS has surpassed the Germans in any way, except the raw power of the CTS-V. The ATS appears it will be a better stab. I've even thought about buying a high-performance V8 car with as much power as I can get and looked into the CTS-V and still thought I'd rather go for a C63 or E63, despite those cars not having as much raw power. Power isn't everything. And this is even despite a desire to buy American.
Wanting perfect reliability, as ranked by the rankings, doesn't necessarily equate with the best quality and most pleasurable car.
Our German family members and friends mostly drive Japanese cars. Maybe that is just what they can afford. Although one of them can afford it, but said "I am not going to pay THAT for a BMW, that is a joke." LIkewise I think an American woudl never buy a Buick in China. (Would you pay $70K for a Buick?)
It is interesting how cars actually come together. Although the overall plan may be orchestrated in a certian location the engineering is all over the place. I have a client in Germany who engineers and makes parts for German, US and Japanese automakers. (He designs and develops electric lock switches, hood and trunk releases, seat belt controls, airbag releases, and the switch that allows the headrest to pop forward in an accident in some cars, among other things. Guy is a genius and a really nice personable guy too, he personally has something like 80-90 intenational patents, his company has many more) However the same car may have wheels designed and made in Japan, an engine designed in the US and built in Mexico, electronics designed and built in China, etc. All of the manufacturers steal from each other all the time. If the guy I know makes a cool new thing for Chrysler, then Mercedes or Honda will hire him to make a similar thing for them.
You're describing everything I don't like about some cars, especially American cars. They have so many components sourced from third parties and other countries it's unreal. And this is one thing I like about German manufacturers, they produce almost everything in Germany, and if it's sourced from a third party it's usually a solid company also known for a pioneering history of innovation and quality, like Bosch. As for Asian cars, I know they build great and reliable cars, but I tend to think of the Asians as copy-cats. Their cars don't have the soul and legacy of European cars. However, I must say the newest Lexus and Infiniti models are closer than ever to replicating overall German quality. If I can't find something American that suits my fancy, I'll at least keep it western and original and go for Germany.
Wanting perfect reliability, as ranked by the rankings, doesn't necessarily equate with the best quality and most pleasurable car.
And besides, reliability isn't just dependent on what manufacturer but rather what generation of vehicle you're speaking of. Brands that used to be known as unreliable have improved a lot just like many brands who used to be known for low quality have improved a lot.
Yea and with that Infiniti still makes better looking cars, and your post shows irony.
You say the Camry is boring yet you people worship bmws and audis which every car in their brand looks identical to the other.
Obviously appearance is subjective and many people (myself included) feel that the new Art and Science concept from Cadillac trounces anything from Japan.
"You people"?! Since when did I ever mention that I care for BMW or Audi, not once.
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Well both are at the top of the chain of their carmakers. But since everyone is doing badge claims and believes that lexus is literally a Toyota I think the Toyota LFA fares up against the m and Amg perfectly. That's off coarse going by the arrogant criteria of these posters.
The Lexus LFA compares remotely to the Mercedes SLS AMG supercar and even in that comparison, the specs between the two are similar but the Mercedes costs $190,000 while the LFA stickers at over $375,000...almost DOUBLE the price of an SLS AMG. BMW has absolutely NOTHING that compares to the LFA at the moment, to make the argument they do is foolish.
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I've experienced the CTS and it doesn't quite stack up to its German competition in my opinion and probably not some of the Asian brands, but it's close and a great car. The ATS seems it will be even better. The CTS-V, I will give you, does trump all others in raw power. You praise the ATS, yet say the 3-series relies on its name and image. Doesn't that contradict the fact Cadillac built a car directly gunning for the 3-series? The 3-series and BMW and Germany are its inspiration.
I was in a 2011 Mercedes C-Class and the 2011 Cadillac CTS knocks the doors off the interior quality. The C-Class had the cheapest plastic, hardest materials they could find. The CTS felt rather nice with some of the leather accents and although the center stack is plastic, it didn't feel particularly bad compared to the C-Class.
The ATS is gunning for the 3-Series primarily because Cadillac intends to prove it can build a better, more agile, lighter, faster, more luxurious vehicle than BMW. Cadillac has to build the ATS from the ground-up while BMW marginally improves each generation of 3-Series. I wouldn't say the ATS takes inspiration from the 3-Series but rather the ATS wants to directly compete with the 3-Series on a level playing field.
That's true. Don't they get used as cabs overseas?
BMW are not used as cabs very often, however most cabs are still Mercedes E-Class.
For most Germans, BMW or Mercedes are not really "just any car", as they are very expensive and luxurious. Foreign luxury cars as Cadillac or Lincoln are not avaliable and Lexus or Infinity have a very very low market share, thus an S-class Mercedes or a BMW 7er are simply cars for upper class people. I just got an S-class as an upgrade for a rental and it was close to perfection in nearly every aspect. The pricetag was about $130,000 so I may never own such a car.
Obviously appearance is subjective and many people (myself included) feel that the new Art and Science concept from Cadillac trounces anything from Japan.
"You people"?! Since when did I ever mention that I care for BMW or Audi, not once.
The Lexus LFA compares remotely to the Mercedes SLS AMG supercar and even in that comparison, the specs between the two are similar but the Mercedes costs $190,000 while the LFA stickers at over $375,000...almost DOUBLE the price of an SLS AMG. BMW has absolutely NOTHING that compares to the LFA at the moment, to make the argument they do is foolish.
I was in a 2011 Mercedes C-Class and the 2011 Cadillac CTS knocks the doors off the interior quality. The C-Class had the cheapest plastic, hardest materials they could find. The CTS felt rather nice with some of the leather accents and although the center stack is plastic, it didn't feel particularly bad compared to the C-Class.
The ATS is gunning for the 3-Series primarily because Cadillac intends to prove it can build a better, more agile, lighter, faster, more luxurious vehicle than BMW. Cadillac has to build the ATS from the ground-up while BMW marginally improves each generation of 3-Series. I wouldn't say the ATS takes inspiration from the 3-Series but rather the ATS wants to directly compete with the 3-Series on a level playing field.
Yes and the Toyota LFA looks better and sounds better then a Sls and I'm willing to bet better quality as well. The only thing appealing about the Sls are the doors. The drop top is just hideous. Just wait till LFA drops a spyder. But don't worry though this is all pointless because "Toyota" makes it.
Could ya quote my post where I was worshiping BMW's and such? Anyways my vehicle of choice is the Wrangler. It doesn't need to change, because it's an iconic image, that everyone on the planet knows.
Here's a snip or two on Car&Drivers opinion of your "all new" Corolla....Camry? Whatever.......
.....Considered in terms of the specifications, all-new is hard to see here. The body dimensions are identical to those of the gen-six car. So are the particulars of the 3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve V-6 that towed our SE test car—same bore, same stroke, same port fuel injection (no direct injection yet), same output: 268 hp, 248 lb-ft of torque........
......Although changes to the basic unibody are mostly cosmetic—the seventh-generation sheetmetal, although not exactly head turning, looks contemporary and continues to be commendably slick......
....Assessed as a device with which to satisfy your inner Sebastian Vettel, the new Camry is pretty similar to its predecessor, which is to say essentially bland. Our test car was an SE model, nominally sportier than the rest of the lineup, but the suspension tuning is still skewed strongly toward the comfort side of the chart. There’s considerable body roll in hard cornering, obstinate understeer progresses to absolute, and as is common nowadays, a new electric-assist power-steering system substitutes weight for tactile information.....
......This still isn’t the kind of car that raises pulse rates. But it is competent in everything, just right for a driver who doesn’t want to be involved any more than is absolutely necessary.....
That's all I need to know. They really only paid complement to the "new" interior.
As I quoted in my post the interior. So you wasted time proving I was right. So beat it and why on earth would I take a opinion from a magazine site? Where do they get these so called opinionated facts from? Any sources?
And you like the wrangler? Jeep one of the most crappiest unreliable machines ever built.
I'm not into climbing mountains and driving in mid thank you.
You're describing everything I don't like about some cars, especially American cars. They have so many components sourced from third parties and other countries it's unreal. And this is one thing I like about German manufacturers, they produce almost everything in Germany, and if it's sourced from a third party it's usually a solid company also known for a pioneering history of innovation and quality, like Bosch. As for Asian cars, I know they build great and reliable cars, but I tend to think of the Asians as copy-cats. Their cars don't have the soul and legacy of European cars. However, I must say the newest Lexus and Infiniti models are closer than ever to replicating overall German quality. If I can't find something American that suits my fancy, I'll at least keep it western and original and go for Germany.
Had a Honda Civic for 3 years - it was reasonably reliable, but just bored me, had to get rid of it.
If you take away the alleged reliability of asian cars, there just pretty boring and very average, and don't even drive as well as renaults, land rovers, or other so called less reliable brands.
I think most modern cars serviced regularly can last well over 100,000 miles - I don't see the point of buying a new car/nearly based on something which is perhaps marginally more reliable than another vehicle over the course of 10 years. When in 3 years you want to change the car
Perhaps a car with lots of miles on it, second hand - I might consider a Honda, or Toyota.
As I quoted in my post the interior. So you wasted time proving I was right. So beat it and why on earth would I take a opinion from a magazine site? Where do they get these so called opinionated facts from? Any sources?
And you like the wrangler? Jeep one of the most crappiest unreliable machines ever built.
I'm not into climbing mountains and driving in mid thank you.
So....it's the same vehicle, with a revised interior, right? I don't know how one can say "it's not the same vehicle at all", but limit it to the interior. I said the outside was boring anyway. What are you talking about with C&D? Where do they get their facts? Their hands and eyes. They are given these vehicles by the car companies to judge and beat the **** out of. These guys are automotive experts and journalists. At it's roots, it's been around since 1955, so they just might know what they're doing.
Jeeps are crappy and unreliable? Every vehicle has occasional issues, but that's one of the funniest things I ever read. You most likely are reading about things breaking from the people that wheel them extremly hard with aftermarket parts. Mine is 21 years old and has yet to leave me stranded. I would take it across the continent without hesitation. Let's see if your new Camry is around 2 decades from now, much less 71 years. Yes that's right. There are 71 year old Jeeps still truckin' along. Maybe you're right though. As a matter of fact, they are so crappy and unreliable, they've been in near constant production since WW2. Yup. Ya got me there.
That 4.0 I-6 motor, running to 2 and 3 and 400K miles...what a peice of junk. Body on frame? Blech!
Legendary off road capability? Disgusting!
Whatever though. To each their own.
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