12-17-2011, 12:33 PM
Location: The Magnolia City
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There's like a page worth of me debating big box retailers being located in AS...not seeing how you don't understand that that was my major beef. As a matter of fact, I don't even remember bringing up the word "organic". That was you.
I'm guessing that now you see why I was hesitant to reply to your last post.
12-17-2011, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nairobi
There's like a page worth of me debating big box retailers being located in AS...not seeing how you don't understand that that was my major beef. As a matter of fact, I don't even remember bringing up the word "organic". That was you.
I'm guessing that now you see why I was hesitant to reply to your last post.
Well it was hard to determine what *the* major complaint was about AS, although it's obvious the big boxes were *a* complaint. If I was mistaken from the outset, I don't see why you'd be hesitant to simply offer a friendly correction. It's easy to miss people's points and talk past each other when it comes to impersonal forms of communication like message boards.
At any rate, the Target and IKEA aren't at the heart of the development, don't really define it in a major way, and are located along the fringes of it. For most people who visit AS, I'd venture to say you could remove the Target and IKEA and they wouldn't even know they're gone. As I stated, your criticisms have merit, but the big boxes don't impact the overall character, feel, and function of the development for the majority of patrons as much as you're implying.
12-17-2011, 02:02 PM
Location: The Magnolia City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mutiny77
Well it was hard to determine what *the* major complaint was about AS, although it's obvious the big boxes were *a* complaint. If I was mistaken from the outset, I don't see why you'd be hesitant to simply offer a friendly correction. It's easy to miss people's points and talk past each other when it comes to impersonal forms of communication like message boards.
At any rate, the Target and IKEA aren't at the heart of the development, don't really define it in a major way, and are located along the fringes of it. For most people who visit AS, I'd venture to say you could remove the Target and IKEA and they wouldn't even know they're gone. As I stated, your criticisms have merit, but the big boxes don't impact the overall character, feel, and function of the development for the majority of patrons as much as you're implying.
We'll agree to disagree, but It most certainly does affect it, in my opinion. As it was brought up earlier, Millenium Gate is one of the main "attractions" of AS, and off in the distance you can see IKEA. Just like that, the urban atmosphere is ruined. I'm most definitely not the only one who recognizes this.
But if we want to pretend that no one ever visits this part of AS, then I guess we can.
12-17-2011, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nairobi
We'll agree to disagree, but It most certainly does affect it, in my opinion. As it was brought up earlier, Millenium Gate is one of the main "attractions" of AS, and off in the distance you can see IKEA. Just like that, the urban atmosphere is ruined. I'm most definitely not the only one who recognizes this.
But if we want to pretend that no one ever visits this part of AS, then I guess we can.
You said it best: "off in the distance." I've actually spent time at the Millenium Arch and the adjacent park (and even snapped a couple of shots); IKEA had absolutely no bearing on how I perceived my immediate surroundings, mainly due to the distance between it and the core of AS. One could look at the site map and see that IKEA would do little to affect the character and feel of the commercial core of AS, the part that most people visit. As a matter of fact, it could just as well have been built independently of AS given its spatial separation from the bulk of AS. Furthermore, if you're visiting AS and you're accessing it from the Connector like most people, there's really no need to go down to IKEA unless you're actually patronizing the store. Honestly, both it and the Target come across as afterthoughts in terms of how they are spatially related to AS as a whole.
I'm not saying that no one goes to the IKEA, but it really does function as a stand-alone building with very little relation to the rest of AS. Would it be better if something truly urban was built there? Of course; that goes for anything. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't negatively impact the urbanity of AS quite as much as you're suggesting because it is, as you so aptly put it, "off in the distance."
12-17-2011, 03:20 PM
Location: The Magnolia City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mutiny77
You said it best: "off in the distance." I've actually spent time at the Millenium Arch and the adjacent park (and even snapped a couple of shots); IKEA had absolutely no bearing on how I perceived my immediate surroundings, mainly due to the distance between it and the core of AS. One could look at the site map and see that IKEA would do little to affect the character and feel of the commercial core of AS, the part that most people visit. As a matter of fact, it could just as well have been built independently of AS given its spatial separation from the bulk of AS. Furthermore, if you're visiting AS and you're accessing it from the Connector like most people, there's really no need to go down to IKEA unless you're actually patronizing the store. Honestly, both it and the Target come across as afterthoughts in terms of how they are spatially related to AS as a whole.
I'm not saying that no one goes to the IKEA, but it really does function as a stand-alone building with very little relation to the rest of AS. Would it be better if something truly urban was built there? Of course; that goes for anything. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't negatively impact the urbanity of AS quite as much as you're suggesting because it is, as you so aptly put it, "off in the distance."
"Off in the distance" doesn't mean "way over yonder". It's close enough that it's noticeable. I've already acknowledged that AS has its urban aspects.
The fact remains that both IKEA and Target are a part of the development, so we're really just debating opinions here. It's your opinion that the big box stores aren't an issue, but I don't share that opinion.
12-17-2011, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nairobi
"Off in the distance" doesn't mean "way over yonder". It's close enough that it's noticeable. I've already acknowledged that AS has its urban aspects.
You can see plenty of suburban stuff while being physically located in an urban area. Such things being within viewing distance shouldn't determine how you feel about your immediate surroundings.
Quote:
The fact remains that both IKEA and Target are a part of the development, so we're really just debating opinions here. It's your opinion that the big box stores aren't an issue, but I don't share that opinion.
No, it's my position that the negative impacts that IKEA and Target have from an urban perspective are minimal due to their location within the development, whereas you believe they are major only because they are a part of it.
12-17-2011, 04:33 PM
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If you live above the 8th or 9th floor in any of the midtown condos and have anything other than a south facing view, you are going to see something like Stone Mountain, the king and queen buildings at Perimeter, lots of trees.....not "way out yonder," but a very prominent part of the view.
So does that mean that these building are not urban?
There is just no pleasing some people. It's moot point, though, because I don't recall AS ever marketing itself as being a completely urban center. That's not even what it's supposed to be. How could it be that, anyway? It's a manufactured live/work/play area on an enormous swath of land. If it was wall to wall skyscrapers, it would be bigger than midtown, which took years to develop.
Personally I don't see what the problem with Target is at all. If you told someone who lived in SoHo or Chelsea that the basement of one of the buildings is now a huge Target, I bet they'd be thrilled to have it and not have to go to Harlem, or Queens, or Jersey or wherever the nearest Target is. Well, isn't that where Target is in AS? It may as well be in the basement, it's so far out of the way that you really have to know it's there to ever find it.
As for Ikea? It's way down the road. Ikea is probably physically further from the movie theater and Twelve Atantic Station than Brooklyn Height is from the World Trade Center.
People tend to forget how large Atlanta is landwise. Really, no area is completely densely packed in an area as large as Atlanta. Maybe Chicago, certain parts of Manhattan.....nothing else in the U.S. And I don't think that we really want to be anything like Beijing or Seoul. So it's really unfair to think that Atlanta should be developing like these places. We're still only the 8th largest metro area in the country, and I think we're way ahead of Philadelphia, Dallas, and Washington which are all technically more populated than we are (as far as metro area goes).
So to say that a development in midtown Atlanta....and not even in the heart of midtown.....is not urban enough would be as silly as me going to Times Square and saying it's too dense and not suburban enough. Why would I expect something to be something other than it is and something that would not fit in where it is?
In summation, if you want to say I don't like Atlantic Station because the condos aren't luxury enough, or the restaurants aren't very good, or the sidewalks aren't wide enough.....whatever, these could be valid points that make some sense. But to say that the entire experience is ruined because you can see an Ikea store down the road or that it has a Target in the development, I mean, it's just an assinie argument. You're entitled to have an assinine opinion, and clearly you do. Just don't expect anybody else here to share it.
12-17-2011, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ATLTJL
So to say that a development in midtown Atlanta....and not even in the heart of midtown.....is not urban enough would be as silly as me going to Times Square and saying it's too dense and not suburban enough. Why would I expect something to be something other than it is and something that would not fit in where it is?
That's a good point. I mentioned earlier that this particular site is physically constrained, and that's probably why it was an industrial site to begin with. Being that it borders a traditional neighborhood to the south (and the residential portion of AS connects to it), an interstate to the east, and an industrial area to the northwest, I think AS serves as a good transitory development as it were. On its own, I seriously, seriously doubt that this area would have developed into anything reasonably urban--an extension of the residential neighborhood to the south at most, but nothing as commercial and mixed-use as AS.
I do think the big box argument that Nairobi makes has some merit, but it all depends on the form and function. There are indeed some truly urban big box stores out there. I wouldn't call the AS Target completely urban, I do like how it is essentially accessible to pedestrians and even has some open space fronting it.
12-17-2011, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nairobi
...so, yeah. I stand by my MERIT-FULL view of it essentially being a mega-lifestyle center.
I'm not sure I understand the difference between a "lifestyle center" (when it's done like Atlantic Station) and any other shopping district.
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Most Common Occupations - Health diagnosing and treating practitioners and other technical occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Health technologists and technicians (%)
Most Common Occupations - Service occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Healthcare support occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Protective service occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Fire fighting and prevention, and other protective service workers including supervisors (%)
Most Common Occupations - Law enforcement workers including supervisors (%)
Most Common Occupations - Food preparation and serving related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Building and grounds cleaning and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Personal care and service occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and office occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Office and administrative support occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)