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Maybe gwinnett county should join MARTA? I'm sure they would make a lot from the sales tax and can work a deal like Clayton where 1/2 the sales tax is set aside for rail transit.
From the surface it appears that the best option for Gwinnett County might be for them to join MARTA if they want high-capacity transit service.
But when one delves deeper into the situation, having outlying counties like Gwinnett (and Cobb) join MARTA to obtain high-capacity transit service might not necessarily be the best option for either a county like Gwinnett or for MARTA.
That's because if counties like Gwinnett (and Cobb) join MARTA, they are going to want to gang up with business and political interests in North Fulton and North DeKalb counties to take political and operational control of MARTA away from the remainder of Fulton and DeKalb counties.
I'm also not that high on using the 1% sales tax as a long-term vehicle of funding high-capacity transit expansion on a large scale.
That's because even if counties (like Clayton, Gwinnett and Cobb) other than Fulton and DeKalb are paying it, the 1% sales tax still would not yield anywhere near enough revenue to fund high-capacity transit expansion on the level that it would need to be funded.
Another major concern is that the potential voter referendum for a county like Gwinnett (or Cobb) to attempt to join MARTA would most likely be an extremely hard sell to an electorate that continues to be dominated by voting interests that remain extremely highly-averse to the concept of voting for a tax increase to fund transit expansion into their county directly from Fulton and DeKalb counties.
Instead of having suburban counties like Gwinnett (and Cobb) attempt to join MARTA (and likely engage in a power struggle for control of MARTA after joining in the unlikely event that they were to join), what would probably be best for both a county like Gwinnett and for an agency like MARTA would be if suburban counties like Gwinnett (and Cobb) each funded their own high-capacity transit service and paid MARTA to use its existing rail transit tracks to operate their own regional HRT service on.
Suburban counties like Gwinnett and Cobb could fund high-capacity transit service implementations into their areas with P3s (Public-Private Partnerships with commercial property owners and their counties' respective business communities) and distance-based fares.
Large urbanizing suburban counties like Gwinnett and Cobb probably need to fund their own transit upgrades and high-capacity transit implementations. They just need to find ways of funding those transit expansion wants and needs that are much better than 1% sales tax proposals that need the approval of extremely tax-averse and transit-averse electorates that have not yet grown to reflect those counties' large and diverse populations.
Great post, Born. Do you know of any companies that would be interested in doing a P3 with MARTA?
Not just individual companies, but also groups of companies, real estate developers and property owners represented by local and regional chambers of commerce and local CIDs (Community Improvement Districts).
Transit agencies like MARTA, GCT (Gwinnett County Transit), CCT (Cobb Community Transit) and GRTA most likely just need to partner with local, regional and state chambers of commerce and local CIDs and let the chambers of commerce and the CIDs do the detailed financial negotiating with private interests on behalf of the transit agencies.
Transit agencies need those very close relationships with the business community and the private sector because the business community and the private sector have access to the money and capital that public transit needs to function at a high level.
From the surface it appears that the best option for Gwinnett County might be for them to join MARTA if they want high-capacity transit service.
But when one delves deeper into the situation, having outlying counties like Gwinnett (and Cobb) join MARTA to obtain high-capacity transit service might not necessarily be the best option for either a county like Gwinnett or for MARTA.
That's because if counties like Gwinnett (and Cobb) join MARTA, they are going to want to gang up with business and political interests in North Fulton and North DeKalb counties to take political and operational control of MARTA away from the remainder of Fulton and DeKalb counties.
I'm also not that high on using the 1% sales tax as a long-term vehicle of funding high-capacity transit expansion on a large scale.
That's because even if counties (like Clayton, Gwinnett and Cobb) other than Fulton and DeKalb are paying it, the 1% sales tax still would not yield anywhere near enough revenue to fund high-capacity transit expansion on the level that it would need to be funded.
Another major concern is that the potential voter referendum for a county like Gwinnett (or Cobb) to attempt to join MARTA would most likely be an extremely hard sell to an electorate that continues to be dominated by voting interests that remain extremely highly-averse to the concept of voting for a tax increase to fund transit expansion into their county directly from Fulton and DeKalb counties.
Instead of having suburban counties like Gwinnett (and Cobb) attempt to join MARTA (and likely engage in a power struggle for control of MARTA after joining in the unlikely event that they were to join), what would probably be best for both a county like Gwinnett and for an agency like MARTA would be if suburban counties like Gwinnett (and Cobb) each funded their own high-capacity transit service and paid MARTA to use its existing rail transit tracks to operate their own regional HRT service on.
Suburban counties like Gwinnett and Cobb could fund high-capacity transit service implementations into their areas with P3s (Public-Private Partnerships with commercial property owners and their counties' respective business communities) and distance-based fares.
Large urbanizing suburban counties like Gwinnett and Cobb probably need to fund their own transit upgrades and high-capacity transit implementations. They just need to find ways of funding those transit expansion wants and needs that are much better than 1% sales tax proposals that need the approval of extremely tax-averse and transit-averse electorates that have not yet grown to reflect those counties' large and diverse populations.
But you hit on the problem. Atlanta wants to control it all. Yet DeKalb, Gwinnett and Cobb combined have double the population of Fulton County and each has far more people than the city of Atlanta. Dallas has managed to knit together a bunch of disparate suburbs and the central city. Houston has done it, although the pattern of cities in the Houston area makes it easier than Dallas or Atlanta (fewer large suburbs).
But you hit on the problem. Atlanta wants to control it all. Yet DeKalb, Gwinnett and Cobb combined have double the population of Fulton County and each has far more people than the city of Atlanta. Dallas has managed to knit together a bunch of disparate suburbs and the central city. Houston has done it, although the pattern of cities in the Houston area makes it easier than Dallas or Atlanta (fewer large suburbs).
Those are some good points, but one of the major reasons that the City of Atlanta, Fulton County and DeKalb counties (most particularly the south side of Fulton and DeKalb counties) want to continue to control the transit infrastructure of MARTA is because the state unintentionally structured it that way.
The state unintentionally structured it that way by basically delegating transit operations to the county level making transit infrastructure optional in each county through local voter referendums.
By giving each of the now-urban core counties the option to reject regional transit service when MARTA was being formed, the state unintentionally concentrated political and operational power over the region's high-capacity transit infrastructure (MARTA) within the counties that did approve regional transit service (Fulton and DeKalb and now Clayton).
The urban/liberal/black power structure on the south side of the region (which was then on the rise because of the exodus of the white middle-class ("white-flight") out of the City of Atlanta then later South Fulton, DeKalb and Clayton counties) benefitted the most from the early-on and continued rejection of MARTA in Clayton, Cobb and Gwinnett counties.
The only way not to have concentrated political and operational power over the region's high-capacity transit infrastructure (MARTA) in the counties that approved it would have been for the State of Georgia to have found a way to fund transit operations and expansions into the areas that needed it without county-by-county voter referendums.
At this point, de-concentrating political and operational power over MARTA from Fulton and DeKalb (and now Clayton) counties would likely require a state takeover of the agency....An action which would in and of itself could potentially ignite a fierce power struggle for political control of the agency between the predominantly white, Republican and conservative north side of the Atlanta region which would want control of the agency after a state takeover and the predominantly black, Democratic and liberal south side of the Atlanta region which currently controls the agency.
A good way to expand high-capacity transit service beyond the current service area in Fulton and DeKalb (and now Clayton) counties without the potential perils of a state takeover of MARTA would be for outlying counties like Gwinnett and Cobb to partner with the State of Georgia to fund their own high-capacity transit implementations through an existing regional transit agency like GRTA.
But you hit on the problem. Atlanta wants to control it all. Yet DeKalb, Gwinnett and Cobb combined have double the population of Fulton County and each has far more people than the city of Atlanta. Dallas has managed to knit together a bunch of disparate suburbs and the central city. Houston has done it, although the pattern of cities in the Houston area makes it easier than Dallas or Atlanta (fewer large suburbs).
Three counties put together have more population than a fourth one by itself? Imagine that!
Three counties put together have more population than a fourth one by itself? Imagine that!
So why should 500k in Atlanta or 1.2 million in Fulton control everything out of a population of almost 4 million in the 5 core counties? Did you not understand that point?
So why should 500k in Atlanta or 1.2 million in Fulton control everything out of a population of almost 4 million in the 5 core counties? Did you not understand that point?
If they pay the sales tax, they can have representation too.
So why should 500k in Atlanta or 1.2 million in Fulton control everything out of a population of almost 4 million in the 5 core counties? Did you not understand that point?
The real problem is that Georgia's counties are way too small. I would love to see some neighboring counties merge into larger counties.
But you hit on the problem. Atlanta wants to control it all. Yet DeKalb, Gwinnett and Cobb combined have double the population of Fulton County and each has far more people than the city of Atlanta. Dallas has managed to knit together a bunch of disparate suburbs and the central city. Houston has done it, although the pattern of cities in the Houston area makes it easier than Dallas or Atlanta (fewer large suburbs).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
So why should 500k in Atlanta or 1.2 million in Fulton control everything out of a population of almost 4 million in the 5 core counties? Did you not understand that point?
Atlanta doesn't have any more reps on the board than anyone else. From my understanding once service in Clayton starts they will also have about 2 to 3 representatives also. That would make 3 reps from each of MARTA's service area: City of Atlanta, Fulton, DeKalb, and Clayton counties. If Gwinnett or Cobb decided to join they would get the same.
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