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I think all the maps that I've seen are pretty cool but most are not realistic in the fact that they go into counties and areas that are not MARTA counties. I think with the exception of the Cumberland/Galleria area of Cobb, MARTA rail expansion is going to be limited to Fulton, DeKalb, and Clayton, at least for the time being. It would be awesome if someone made a more realistic expansion on what is possible as of right now. I would but I'm not good with making the maps as I've seen some people are.
The real limiting factor is the technology. While a one-seat ride from Duluth to say, Civic Center would be nice, there's no way anyone is going to build Heavy Rail that far out from Atlanta. On some corridors like GA-400 and I-20 East, there's no alternative of course so HRT makes the most sense, they're also shorter corridors. GA-400 density falls off rapidly north of Windward, and likewise after Conyers for I-20 East whereas the "Duluth" corridor maintains decent density through Suwanee, Buford to Gainesville. Commuter rail however is a real possibility, and it might even be run by MARTA.
Last post for me in this thread (well, the last post in which I post any new maps). This post has two maps again, but they are links.
First, the final version of my previous maps from this thread. Some changes were made, notably the extension of the Green Line from Bankhead north and east to Tucker, the extension of the North Loop BRT to Lawrenceville, and the correction of the line configuration at the Marietta station. I consider this the "Plan 2050" (aka the "never gonna happen map").
Finally, as a pessimistic bonus, I've also included my "fictional, but super realistic" map that, while much more limited, takes into account various political roadblocks (let's say Cobb refuses to join MARTA, but is open to a "partnership" for a BRT operation, and NIMBYism runs rampant in Gwinnett) and lines currently under study by MARTA. To sum up, the "fictional, but super realistic" map does the following to "Plan 2050":
- Removes the Green Line extension from Bankhead to Tucker.
- Removes the North Loop and Stonecrest Express BRT lines.
- Removes the Navy Line along the perimeter.
- The Magenta Line survives, but is downgraded from HRT to BRT and run as a joint CCT-MARTA operation.
- The Blue Line extension from Hamilton E. Holmes to Thornton Road is axed entirely. Presumably, the Six Flags Shuttle continues operation.
- The Gold Line extension from Norcross to Sugarloaf is axed entirely.
- The Gold Line extension into Clayton has been converted to commuter rail between East Point and Jonesboro.
- Finally, the Blue Line extension from Indian Creek to Stonecrest has been converted to BRT along I-285 and I-20.
- The two infill stations (Boone Blvd. and Armour) are never built.
Last post for me in this thread (well, the last post in which I post any new maps). This post has two maps again, but they are links.
First, the final version of my previous maps from this thread. Some changes were made, notably the extension of the Green Line from Bankhead north and east to Tucker, the extension of the North Loop BRT to Lawrenceville, and the correction of the line configuration at the Marietta station. I consider this the "Plan 2050" (aka the "never gonna happen map").
Finally, as a pessimistic bonus, I've also included my "fictional, but super realistic" map that, while much more limited, takes into account various political roadblocks (let's say Cobb refuses to join MARTA, but is open to a "partnership" for a BRT operation, and NIMBYism runs rampant in Gwinnett) and lines currently under study by MARTA. To sum up, the "fictional, but super realistic" map does the following to "Plan 2050":
- Removes the Green Line extension from Bankhead to Tucker.
- Removes the North Loop and Stonecrest Express BRT lines.
- Removes the Navy Line along the perimeter.
- The Magenta Line survives, but is downgraded from HRT to BRT and run as a joint CCT-MARTA operation.
- The Blue Line extension from Hamilton E. Holmes to Thornton Road is axed entirely. Presumably, the Six Flags Shuttle continues operation.
- The Gold Line extension from Norcross to Sugarloaf is axed entirely.
- The Gold Line extension into Clayton has been converted to commuter rail between East Point and Jonesboro.
- Finally, the Blue Line extension from Indian Creek to Stonecrest has been converted to BRT along I-285 and I-20.
- The two infill stations (Boone Blvd. and Armour) are never built.
Actually, the BRT component of I-20 East will likely be built first and run from Five Points to Wesley Chapel via I-20 inside I-285 with the Blue Line as HRT running down I-285, then turning east and meeting the BRT and Wesley Chapel and running all the way to Stonecrest as HRT.
The real limiting factor is the technology. While a one-seat ride from Duluth to say, Civic Center would be nice, there's no way anyone is going to build Heavy Rail that far out from Atlanta. On some corridors like GA-400 and I-20 East, there's no alternative of course so HRT makes the most sense, they're also shorter corridors. GA-400 density falls off rapidly north of Windward, and likewise after Conyers for I-20 East whereas the "Duluth" corridor maintains decent density through Suwanee, Buford to Gainesville. Commuter rail however is a real possibility, and it might even be run by MARTA.
While I definitely agree that the rapid rail technology could be improved, the implementation of Heavy Rail Transit service out to a location like Duluth is not necessarily all that out of the realm of possibility as it might seem to some from a distance standpoint.
The Gwinnett Center complex (arena, performing arts centers and convention center) is only about 26 miles from the Civic Center MARTA Station and is only about 37 miles from the Atlanta Airport, about the same exact distances as Windward Parkway is from Downtown and the ATL Airport.
If regional HRT service is viable for the 37-mile distance between the Atlanta Airport and Windward Parkway, then regional HRT service should be viable for the almost same exact 37-mile distance between the Atlanta Airport and the Gwinnett Center complex in Duluth.
The big difference between the Windward Parkway location and Gwinnett Center/Duluth location is that the Windward Parkway location where MARTA is currently proposed to be extended to lies within an area in North Fulton County that pays the 1% sales tax that funds MARTA while the Gwinnett Center location that wants high-capacity rail transit service lies in an area within Gwinnett County that does not pay into MARTA.
The longest single Heavy Rail Transit line in North America is the Pittsburg/Bay Point-SFO/Millbrae Line in the BART system in the Bay Area of Northern California which is just over 55 miles in length (55.2 miles in length to be exact).
Using that criteria of the longest HRT line in North America being 55 miles in length, regional HRT with regular service would be viable from the ATL Airport to as far out as the Mall of Georgia/Buford area of Gwinnett County (the Mall of Georgia would be roughly about 49 miles from the Atlanta Airport by rail).
One could even make the argument that regional HRT service would be viable out to areas as far out as Cumming and Gainesville utilizing express service that would bypass many lower-capacity stations between the ATL Airport and Cumming and between the ATL Airport and Gainesville.
While I definitely agree that the rapid rail technology could be improved, the implementation of Heavy Rail Transit service out to a location like Duluth is not necessarily all that out of the realm of possibility as it might seem to some from a distance standpoint.
The Gwinnett Center complex (arena, performing arts centers and convention center) is only about 26 miles from the Civic Center MARTA Station and is only about 37 miles from the Atlanta Airport, about the same exact distances as Windward Parkway is from Downtown and the ATL Airport.
If regional HRT service is viable for the 37-mile distance between the Atlanta Airport and Windward Parkway, then regional HRT service should be viable for the almost same exact 37-mile distance between the Atlanta Airport and the Gwinnett Center complex in Duluth.
The big difference between the Windward Parkway location and Gwinnett Center/Duluth location is that the Windward Parkway location where MARTA is currently proposed to be extended to lies within an area in North Fulton County that pays the 1% sales tax that funds MARTA while the Gwinnett Center location that wants high-capacity rail transit service lies in an area within Gwinnett County that does not pay into MARTA.
The longest single Heavy Rail Transit line in North America is the Pittsburg/Bay Point-SFO/Millbrae Line in the BART system in the Bay Area of Northern California which is just over 55 miles in length (55.2 miles in length to be exact).
Using that criteria of the longest HRT line in North America being 55 miles in length, regional HRT with regular service would be viable from the ATL Airport to as far out as the Mall of Georgia/Buford area of Gwinnett County (the Mall of Georgia would be roughly about 49 miles from the Atlanta Airport by rail).
One could even make the argument that regional HRT service would be viable out to areas as far out as Cumming and Gainesville utilizing express service that would bypass many lower-capacity stations between the ATL Airport and Cumming and between the ATL Airport and Gainesville.
That corridor has freight rail, that can be used by commuter trains for less money and passes thru the traditional downtowns. North Fulton has no existing rail, so building hrt in the 400 corridor is the best option.
That corridor has freight rail, that can be used by commuter trains for less money and passes thru the traditional downtowns. North Fulton has no existing rail, so building hrt in the 400 corridor is the best option.
Those are excellent points that the I-85 NE corridor has an existing freight rail ROW that passes through the traditional downtowns and that North Fulton County has no existing freight rail right-of-way on which to consider operating future commuter rail service.
But the expansion of Heavy Rail Transit service (in the form of a future extension of the MARTA Red Line) is not just under serious consideration in the GA 400 North corridor because of the lack of the type of radial freight rail ROW that already exists in the I-75 NW and I-85 NE corridors.
The extension of HRT service is under serious consideration in the GA 400 North corridor because of a pressing logistical need (extremely severe and worsening traffic congestion along a built-out GA 400 North roadway).
The extension of HRT service is also under serious consideration in the GA 400 North corridor because of the very strong desire by North Fulton business and real estate interests to use HRT as a tool to increase long-term economic development prospects and real estate values in a 21st Century economy that places an increasingly great amount of importance on transit access.
Gwinnett County business and real estate interests also have the same desire that North Fulton business and real estate interests have to use high-capacity passenger rail transit to strengthen long-term economic development prospects and increase real estate values that potentially might otherwise decline without adequate transit access.
Gwinnett County business interests especially want to use high-capacity passenger rail transit service to revitalize declining areas of the county in the Jimmy Carter Boulevard and Gwinnett Place Mall areas while also helping areas like the Norcross and Satellite Boulevard industrial corridors, the Gwinnett Center complex and the Mall of Georgia area to remain economically viable over the long-term.
Gwinnett County also needs more than just an attempt at operating commuter trains on busy existing freight tracks along the Norfolk Southern/Southern Railroad ROW.
Being a fast-growing urbanizing county with a large population of almost 900,000 people that is expected to eclipse the 1 million-inhabitant mark in the not-too-distant future, Gwinnett County seriously needs regional HRT service that connects to major activity centers ATP/At-the Perimeter (Perimeter, Cumberland and Cobb County) and ITP/Inside-the-Perimeter (Emory, Buckhead, Midtown, Downtown and ATL Airport).
In addition to seriously needing regional HRT service to remain economically viable over the long-term in an economic marketplace where the presence of high-capacity transit continues to importance, Gwinnett County and Northeast Metro Atlanta also seriously need regional HRT service to attempt to relieve severe traffic congestion stress from major roadways like I-85, I-985, GA 316, PIB (Peachtree Industrial Boulevard), etc.
Those are excellent points that the I-85 NE corridor has an existing freight rail ROW that passes through the traditional downtowns and that North Fulton County has no existing freight rail right-of-way on which to consider operating future commuter rail service.
But the expansion of Heavy Rail Transit service (in the form of a future extension of the MARTA Red Line) is not just under serious consideration in the GA 400 North corridor because of the lack of the type of radial freight rail ROW that already exists in the I-75 NW and I-85 NE corridors.
The extension of HRT service is under serious consideration in the GA 400 North corridor because of a pressing logistical need (extremely severe and worsening traffic congestion along a built-out GA 400 North roadway).
The extension of HRT service is also under serious consideration in the GA 400 North corridor because of the very strong desire by North Fulton business and real estate interests to use HRT as a tool to increase long-term economic development prospects and real estate values in a 21st Century economy that places an increasingly great amount of importance on transit access.
Gwinnett County business and real estate interests also have the same desire that North Fulton business and real estate interests have to use high-capacity passenger rail transit to strengthen long-term economic development prospects and increase real estate values that potentially might otherwise decline without adequate transit access.
Gwinnett County business interests especially want to use high-capacity passenger rail transit service to revitalize declining areas of the county in the Jimmy Carter Boulevard and Gwinnett Place Mall areas while also helping areas like the Norcross and Satellite Boulevard industrial corridors, the Gwinnett Center complex and the Mall of Georgia area to remain economically viable over the long-term.
Gwinnett County also needs more than just an attempt at operating commuter trains on busy existing freight tracks along the Norfolk Southern/Southern Railroad ROW.
Being a fast-growing urbanizing county with a large population of almost 900,000 people that is expected to eclipse the 1 million-inhabitant mark in the not-too-distant future, Gwinnett County seriously needs regional HRT service that connects to major activity centers ATP/At-the Perimeter (Perimeter, Cumberland and Cobb County) and ITP/Inside-the-Perimeter (Emory, Buckhead, Midtown, Downtown and ATL Airport).
In addition to seriously needing regional HRT service to remain economically viable over the long-term in an economic marketplace where the presence of high-capacity transit continues to importance, Gwinnett County and Northeast Metro Atlanta also seriously need regional HRT service to attempt to relieve severe traffic congestion stress from major roadways like I-85, I-985, GA 316, PIB (Peachtree Industrial Boulevard), etc.
Maybe gwinnett county should join MARTA? I'm sure they would make a lot from the sales tax and can work a deal like Clayton where 1/2 the sales tax is set aside for rail transit.
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