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It's very helpful to know that god was in slavery, lynchings, rape, murder, car jackings, kidnapping, the 9/11 attacks, hurricanes that have killed ten of thousands over the years, the murder of little Black girls in the church during the Civil Rights era, the Holocaust, cancer, deaths due to covid, the Civil War...and all the other things that have ruined the lives of countless millions throughout the years.
The sources of all those matters were people, with distorted views of God perhaps, and hatred of others especially. People at fault; not some god or deity.
With the line of reasoning at the top, cars would be guilty of vehicular homicide rather than the people in use of them. I.e. targeting an indirect factor rather than the direct cause. There's plenty of horrific action by humans, with much of it in the absence of a god or deity. That's what ties atrocities together, not some external deity.
If people are careless and fall - hurting themself - do you blame gravity?
Last edited by Thoreau424; 04-20-2024 at 03:52 PM..
The sources of all those matters were people, with distorted views of God perhaps, and hatred of others especially. People at fault; not some god or deity.
With the line of reasoning at the top, cars would be guilty of vehicular homicide rather than the people in use of them. I.e. targeting an indirect factor rather than the direct cause. There's plenty of horrific action by humans, and much of it even in the absence of a god or deity.
This is a very common counterargument from theists here and I will say that it is not 100% meritless, because you can certainly find examples of people committing various heinous acts who aren't religious, too. However it mostly misses the point.
The thing is, I don't contend that god makes people worse, but that he doesn't make them better.. And since the claim of believers is that god's moral code written in the hearts of believers makes them "a new creation" with at least the ability to overcome the "sin nature" -- it is then a problem that the percentage of Christians in prison populations is about the same as their population outside prison; that they (including and maybe even especially, clergy) are perfectly capable of various forms of sexual assault; that they can be autocrats, persecutors, murderers and just about all the other things it supposedly takes atheism to pull off ... I would say that's the ACTUAL problem. If you consider divorce a sin or at least some sort of moral failure, Christians get divorced at about the same rates as everyone else. And so forth.
And I think you're also missing at least part of the point of the post you're responding to, because it was in response to someone claiming that god is "in everything". Which means that he has to be in evil things as well as good things. Phet wasn't really making the point you're responding to. It was a rhetorical point about what follows if we accept the proposition that god is "in everything".
I don't contend that god makes people worse, but that he doesn't make them better..
Well, that's likely from your perspective. If you aren't around enough from the "God groups" - to get a true sampling - then you'll probably just follow the news or see the worst of the worst. Just like that saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease", we tend to perk up our attention to things that stand out, rather than the quieter components in the background.
I've had personal experience of over 40 years of positives that I wouldn't have had otherwise. I won't waste any time going into long detail. That's just not me. But the benefits have been unmistakable. I know it's in others too. It's not loud or showy, nor does it need to be. Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for religion, I'm advocating for spirituality and relationships. What I've found beneficial requires no group, no bible, no building, no fixed belief system, nothing to sign up to, nothing to defend, and nothing to promote. It's highly personal, liberating, and connected with the universe and all humanity. It's been 100% beneficial.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 04-20-2024 at 04:29 PM..
The sources of all those matters were people, with distorted views of God perhaps, and hatred of others especially. People at fault; not some god or deity.
With the line of reasoning at the top, cars would be guilty of vehicular homicide rather than the people in use of them. I.e. targeting an indirect factor rather than the direct cause. There's plenty of horrific action by humans, with much of it in the absence of a god or deity. That's what ties atrocities together, not some external deity.
If people are careless and fall - hurting themself - do you blame gravity?
I wasn't pre-responding (so to speak) to you. I was specifically responding to what the other poster said.
The sources of all those matters were people, with distorted views of God perhaps, and hatred of others especially. People at fault; not some god or deity.
With the line of reasoning at the top, cars would be guilty of vehicular homicide rather than the people in use of them. I.e. targeting an indirect factor rather than the direct cause. There's plenty of horrific action by humans, with much of it in the absence of a god or deity. That's what ties atrocities together, not some external deity.
If people are careless and fall - hurting themself - do you blame gravity?
Well said.
This line of reasoning that was quoted, in addition absolves the people who lynched, murdered little girls, bombed children, raped women and men, took hostages, brought on famine on multitudes. The fault lies not with the actors but in God. This perspective is no different from those who think they have a duty to do this to save their country, save their culture, save their ideology, save their wealth, because somehow God bade them to do so, and it is their god-given duty to carry out. It is insanity.
Well, that's likely from your perspective. If you aren't around enough from the "God groups" - to get a true sampling - then you'll probably just follow the news or see the worst of the worst. Just like that saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease", we tend to perk up our attention to things that stand out, rather than the quieter components in the background.
Certainly "if it bleeds it leads" and we see the worst news on all topics, but here again ... not the point that I made. I spoke mostly from thirty years of personal experience and observation as a Christian, and another thirty years of watching from the outside, and I saw no real difference, then OR now. It is rather facile to say that Christians are "new creations" with "victory over sin" and making the world a better place in ways that cannot be adequately explained apart from their Christianity ... and then to demur that all that is "quiet" and subtle and "behind the scenes" so we can't really see any evidence of it. Really?
Becoming a Christian was always presented to me as a life-changing thing, as transformative, dramatic and without parallel. By contrast, not being a Christian was always portrayed as hopeless and degrading, with Christ the only antidote. Do you really allege that Christians, by and large, live up to this standard?
The sources of all those matters were people, with distorted views of God perhaps, and hatred of others especially. People at fault; not some god or deity.
That is based on your view of god, not the logical conclusion of CBs post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424
With the line of reasoning at the top, cars would be guilty of vehicular homicide rather than the people in use of them. I.e. targeting an indirect factor rather than the direct cause. There's plenty of horrific action by humans, with much of it in the absence of a god or deity. That's what ties atrocities together, not some external deity.
If people are careless and fall - hurting themself - do you blame gravity?
Cars and gravity are not intelligent gods, and can not do what an all powerful god could do if that is the god you believe in.
Well said.
This line of reasoning that was quoted, in addition absolves the people who lynched, murdered little girls, bombed children, raped women and men, took hostages, brought on famine on multitudes.
No it does not, your examples just demonstrates the flaw of using inanimate, non-intelligent objects and processes as analogies of intelligent beings.
No it does not, your examples just demonstrates the flaw of using inanimate, non-intelligent objects and processes as analogies of intelligent beings.
Indeed; what a confusion of non-sequiturs we wade through here. Saying that various religions provide, on balance, cover / justification / encouragement for human mischief has nothing to do with transferring guilt for individual actions away from individuals. Nor does it change that individual decisions have to be made to be better persons and think more clearly and stop claiming that god approves of, or even commands, their bad decisions. Divine command theory is in fact a big driver of bad behavior, because our chosen gods always agree with us.
I once sat under a pastor who said that "bad religion is a hard taskmaster". But I think he underestimated the problem. The failed epistemology of religious faith, followed with full fidelity, disconnects people from observing and learning from cause and effect. He would have better said "bad religion is an even worse taskmaster than it already inherently is". It has since become my view that "good religion" is "lipstick on a pig", so that even its best followers ultimately do good in the world in spite of rather than because of it. Often by ignoring the worst aspects of the belief system, emphasizing the parts that happen to make sense, and improvising the rest. Something that a fundamentalist / literalist / inerrantist will have a really big struggle with.
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