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So, God apparently didn't seem to hear the prayers of 6 million Jews during the Holocaust, so why does anyone think that God will really grant you the new job you were hoping to get? REALLY? Shouldn't people just say that they were hoping to get the new job rather than try and use God to grant their requests?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
You got that right!
Oh well, dont you know??? The Jews were not Christians. Don't you know that God doesn't hear the prayers of nonbelievers??? <=== STATED "TONGUE-IN-CHEEK" HERE, OF COURSE
But then I imagine when New York City's World Trade Center twin towers were attacked and destroyed on September 11th, 2001 and there were any number of persons who fell off or fell out of the building from way up on an upper level (like 80 to 95 stories up, for instance) or crushed by many thousands of tons of material collapsing and coming aprt around them, it is reasonble to presume that any number of them were believing and proclaiming Christians who desperately prayed and prayed on the way down. And what good did it do any of them???
But then some of these same type of people (both believers and nonbelivers in whatever religous school[s]-of-thoght ) get things going their way in life after praying for whatever things they are praying for. So what does this indicate? That God (if there is such an entity in the first place and one who has all or most of the stated omni powers at its avail) is at times prone to being "flippant" and operating "by his whim"? It's a coin toss as to whether things go your way or not.
More often than not (in fact, MUCH MUCH MUCH more often than not), life appears over and over and over again to operate by an overall perception of sheer random chance being at play. This doesn't absolutely prove that there is no creator of us all (there may be or may not be) but, even if there is, it most certainly is NOT committed to granting all or even a greater portion of our myriad day-to-day prayers, exhortations, requests, et al. Or it may be the case that said God/god doesn't have all the described omni powers to be able to know what we each are thinking at all times and then instituting actions on our behalfs to fulfull our myriad prayers, exhortations, requests, et al.
Oh well, dont you know??? The Jews were not Christians. Don't you know that God doesn't hear the prayers of nonbelievers??? <=== STATED "TONGUE-IN-CHEEK" HERE, OF COURSE
But then I imagine when New York City's World Trade Center twin towers were attacked and destroyed on September 11th, 2001 and there were any number of persons who fell off or fell out of the building from way up on an upper level (like 80 to 95 stories up, for instance) or crushed by many thousands of tons of material collapsing and coming aprt around them, it is reasonble to presume that any number of them were believing and proclaiming Christians who desperately prayed and prayed on the way down. And what good did it do any of them???
But then some of these same type of people (both believers and nonbelivers in whatever religous school[s]-of-thoght ) get things going their way in life after praying for whatever things they are praying for. So what does this indicate? That God (if there is such an entity in the first place and one who has all or most of the stated omni powers at its avail) is at times prone to being "flippant" and operating "by his whim"? It's a coin toss as to whether things go your way or not.
More often than not (in fact, MUCH MUCH MUCH more often than not), life appears over and over and over again to operate by an overall perception of sheer random chance being at play. This doesn't absolutely prove that there is no creator of us all (there may be or may not be) but, even if there is, it most certainly is NOT committed to granting all or even a greater portion of our myriad day-to-day prayers, exhortations, requests, et al. Or it may be the case that said God/god doesn't have all the described omni powers to be able to know what we each are thinking at all times and then instituting actions on our behalfs to fulfull our myriad prayers, exhortations, requests, et al.
Right now lots of saints and avatars, monks and nuns and many people pray daily for this world and for others. They are sincere and honestly believing that this is happening, that they are praying for me too...makes me feel better. It is very helpful.
Some people in the construction business are always praying to God: Please God, a hurricane or tornado so I'll have lots of construction work!
Oh well, dont you know??? The Jews were not Christians. Don't you know that God doesn't hear the prayers of nonbelievers??? <=== STATED "TONGUE-IN-CHEEK" HERE, OF COURSE
But then I imagine when New York City's World Trade Center twin towers were attacked and destroyed on September 11th, 2001 and there were any number of persons who fell off or fell out of the building from way up on an upper level (like 80 to 95 stories up, for instance) or crushed by many thousands of tons of material collapsing and coming aprt around them, it is reasonble to presume that any number of them were believing and proclaiming Christians who desperately prayed and prayed on the way down. And what good did it do any of them???
But then some of these same type of people (both believers and nonbelivers in whatever religous school[s]-of-thoght ) get things going their way in life after praying for whatever things they are praying for. So what does this indicate? That God (if there is such an entity in the first place and one who has all or most of the stated omni powers at its avail) is at times prone to being "flippant" and operating "by his whim"? It's a coin toss as to whether things go your way or not.
More often than not (in fact, MUCH MUCH MUCH more often than not), life appears over and over and over again to operate by an overall perception of sheer random chance being at play. This doesn't absolutely prove that there is no creator of us all (there may be or may not be) but, even if there is, it most certainly is NOT committed to granting all or even a greater portion of our myriad day-to-day prayers, exhortations, requests, et al. Or it may be the case that said God/god doesn't have all the described omni powers to be able to know what we each are thinking at all times and then instituting actions on our behalfs to fulfull our myriad prayers, exhortations, requests, et al.
Great post UsAll.
And while I also believe what happens to us in life is random, I also believe many times our own individual decisions have a direct effect on the results we experience.
Of course those who were in the Trade Center did not decide to die that day, and many others who experience the extreme rare occurrence, I will always believe that the highest percentage of situations we have are due to how we choose to live our own lives.
If prayers worked my brother wouldn't have suffered horribly before dying of cancer leaving two young boys behind. I don't believe in prayer. I'd rather deal with reality than rely on false hope.
And while I also believe what happens to us in life is random, I also believe many times our own individual decisions have a direct effect on the results we experience.
Of course those who were in the Trade Center did not decide to die that day, and many others who experience the extreme rare occurrence, I will always believe that the highest percentage of situations we have are due to how we choose to live our own lives.
If prayers worked my brother wouldn't have suffered horribly before dying of cancer leaving two young boys behind. I don't believe in prayer. I'd rather deal with reality than rely on false hope.
Of course our life experiences are a combination of random events and the results of our individual decisions.
Does anyone have any doubt about this?
Some people like to say "we make our own luck," and indeed in many ways we do while at the same time what is good or bad "luck" is largely outside our control.
And while I also believe what happens to us in life is random, I also believe many times our own individual decisions have a direct effect on the results we experience.
Of course those who were in the Trade Center did not decide to die that day, and many others who experience the extreme rare occurrence, I will always believe that the highest percentage of situations we have are due to how we choose to live our own lives.
If prayers worked my brother wouldn't have suffered horribly before dying of cancer leaving two young boys behind. I don't believe in prayer. I'd rather deal with reality than rely on false hope.
Yes...for me as a Buddhist, what you have described above is the real meaning of karma -- simple cause and effect.
Of course our life experiences are a combination of random events and the results of our individual decisions.
Does anyone have any doubt about this?
Some people like to say "we make our own luck," and indeed in many ways we do while at the same time what is good or bad "luck" is largely outside our control.
Yes, some people do doubt that. I have heard it said many times that there are no coincidences. That everything happens for a reason.
I think we have to question the setting in which those children were asking. I would guess not in any normal setting. Perhaps when he would be a speaker at a school?
The reason I say that is that I was a middle and high school teacher for 13 years and a middle school principal for 20. In all that time I was asked only once about my religion, and not that really in that way.
It was actually a somewhat funny situation. We had a student in our school who was significantly physically handicapped (I don't remember now which muscular condition she had, but it was something like muscular dystrophy). Very nice, very intelligent girl, and also very friendly; often took time to stop and talk to me during class change. One day, after a social studies teacher apparently said to one of her classes that "Mr. Victor is Buddhist" (they were studying Asia at the time), the girl stopped and asked me if it was true. I declined to answer, and over the next several days she peppered me with such questions (her family was VERY christian, so to speak, but also very friendly). I finally said, "Yes, and I don't care to discuss my religion beyond that". And she said, "Why would you want to be in one of those Asian religions?" I smiled and said, "You're a christian. Right?" She affirmed that she was, and I said, "Why would you want to be in one of those Middle Eastern religions?" It was one of those moments when you see a lightbulb in someone's head turning on, and she broke into a broad smile and said, "Oh, I never thought of it that way before". She never brought the topic up again, but continued her frequent stops to chat.
American culture, being fundamentally narcissistic, has had a very corrupting effect on religion, so that it's sometimes hard to peel away the layers of culture and commercialism to get at the heart of the matter.
And Americans outside religion only see absurdities, and think that if God doesn't do what you ask in prayer, then prayer is useless and there is no God. A narcissistic interpretation of prayer. I never recall in my Christian education being instructed to ask for personal favors from God. We were more about offering praise and prayers of thanksgiving, asking for forgiveness, and for God's will to be done. "Not what I will, but what You will."
Eastern religions also have the tradition of prayer...
"Supplication, worship, prayer are no superstition; they are acts more real than the acts of eating, drinking, sitting or walking. It is no exaggeration to say that they alone are real, all else is unreal." -- Mahatma Gandhi
American culture, being fundamentally narcissistic, has had a very corrupting effect on religion, so that it's sometimes hard to peel away the layers of culture and commercialism to get at the heart of the matter.
And Americans outside religion only see absurdities, and think that if God doesn't do what you ask in prayer, then prayer is useless and there is no God. A narcissistic interpretation of prayer. I never recall in my Christian education being instructed to ask for personal favors from God. We were more about offering praise and prayers of thanksgiving, asking for forgiveness, and for God's will to be done. "Not what I will, but what You will."
Eastern religions also have the tradition of prayer...
"Supplication, worship, prayer are no superstition; they are acts more real than the acts of eating, drinking, sitting or walking. It is no exaggeration to say that they alone are real, all else is unreal." -- Mahatma Gandhi
I'm not sure what that had to do with my post, but okay.
I'm not sure what that had to do with my post, but okay.
I was trying to tie the Middle Eastern/Eastern religions back to the original topic of prayer.
And I was also going to share a personal story, about my partner (of 30+ years ago) who died of AIDS at 41. After his diagnosis he became more religious, and especially so after he got very sick, and had several hospital stays. Although he was very extraverted, he said he didn't mind spending long hours alone in a hospital bed, "Because it gives me time to intercede for others." He wasn't praying for his own life to be spared, but was praying for his loved ones he was going to leave behind. He spent so much time helping out his extended family.
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