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You should be able to see that mankind as a whole has made a mess of things, throughout human history.
To me the real problem here is that you claim that mankind as a whole made a mess of things...
Yet you (Christians) also claim that God knew in advance that mankind was GOING to make a whole mess of things.
You (Christians) further claim that even though God knew before we ever made this mess... that we were going to make it... that somehow it was due to our "free will"... that we seem to have had before we ever even existed...
And finally, although you (Christians) claim we have "free will"... you also claim prophecies where God directs all the action to provide an outcome.... thus overriding any concept of "free will" of the characters involved.
For instance, does the fellow who turns out to be the Antichrist have "free will"? Can he change his mind and end up not being the Antichrist? Could he become a Christian even and we just don't have an Antichrist because the dude selected to be the Antichrist changed his mind?
Somehow you (Christians) take this morass of contradictions, complications and conundrums and rationalize it to make sense.
Others cannot, will not and do not. Yet we are the bad guys because we refuse to abandon simple logic.
To me the real problem here is that you claim that mankind as a whole made a mess of things...
Yet you (Christians) also claim that God knew in advance that mankind was GOING to make a whole mess of things.
You (Christians) further claim that even though God knew before we ever made this mess... that we were going to make it... that somehow it was due to our "free will"... that we seem to have had before we ever even existed...
And finally, although you (Christians) claim we have "free will"... you also claim prophecies where God directs all the action to provide an outcome.... thus overriding any concept of "free will" of the characters involved.
For instance, does the fellow who turns out to be the Antichrist have "free will"? Can he change his mind and end up not being the Antichrist? Could he become a Christian even and we just don't have an Antichrist because the dude selected to be the Antichrist changed his mind?
Somehow you (Christians) take this morass of contradictions, complications and conundrums and rationalize it to make sense.
Others cannot, will not and do not. Yet we are the bad guys because we refuse to abandon simple logic.
Given the ability to choose, mankind rebelled against God, our creator. Man said, “I don’t need You, God. I can build my world without You.” God said, “If you take that position, you will suffer and die.” Man took that position, and he began to suffer, and he has been dying ever since.
According to your story, one man rebelled, because your all knowing god did not stop one of it's creations from tempting a woman, even though it must have known (being all knowing) the serpent was going to do this, and knowing (being all knowing) that Adam and Eve would fall.
Even if you do not believe in the literally story, why would a god give us free will if we are not allowed to use it, especially when this god is very bad at providing evidence for it's existence?
According to your religious book, men are not allowed to look at women lustfully, even though it is natural to find a woman sexy before the conscious mind is able to make a choice. So your god's punishment is to force us to be sinners, and we can do nothing except to apologize to your god for something your god makes us do.
And your god continues to allow this bizarre punishment, even though logically it could find an alternate solution to it's own mistake (being all powerful).
You should be able to see that mankind as a whole has made a mess of things, throughout human history.
Mankind has also done a lot of good, something your god could have taught us, but according to the Bible, did not. We abolished slavery, we invented medicine, logic, science. Your god allegedly created a universe where km wide pieces of rock fly through space, one of which wiped out the dinosaurs 60+ million years ago. What did they do to your god before man had even evolved?
My question for you would be, how informed is your instinctual nature and worldview? How diligent has been your quest for ultimate Truth? If, as I suspect, you are saying little more than that you find Christianity unappealing and contrary to your notions of the way things ought to be - well, OK, but a position on ultimate Truth that is based on little more than instinct is pretty shallow and shaky.
no that is not the Jewish view at all.
the post above is spreading mis-information. if someone is taught that about Judaism, then it comes from a source which is in my view malicious.
the jewish view is that there is no "hell" for anyone because hell does not exist. Hell and eternal torment is an invention of Crstnty (circa the year 200 CE) and adopted by Islam (circa the year 600 CE). https://www.city-data.com/forum/63741617-post119.html
Crstnty and Islam do not recognize reincarnation, they have hell and eternal torment
Buddhism, Judaism (and other religions) have reincarnation, there is no eternal punishment.
In Judaism (circa 3500 BCE), it's not necessary for a person to be Jewish to end up in Olam Haba (World to Come) or Gan Eden; it depends on a person's relationship with God. And in Judaism there is no hell. For anyone. Hell is an invention of Crstnty. The Jewish view is that God is available and accessible to everyone regardless of a person's path of religion and spirituality.
"The righteous of the nations [non Jews] have a share in Olam Ha-Ba. You don’t have to be Jewish to fulfill the divine purpose for which you were created." Judaism views all of humankind as created in the image of God, and cares about the physical and spiritual well-being of all humans.
Thank you for explaining that Tzaph. We have very little discussion of what Judaism is or what Jews believe in THIS forum. Hinduism and Judaism, i think but not sure, are the most ancient religions and they share a lot of similarity.
To me the real problem here is that you claim that mankind as a whole made a mess of things...
Yet you (Christians) also claim that God knew in advance that mankind was GOING to make a whole mess of things.
You (Christians) further claim that even though God knew before we ever made this mess... that we were going to make it... that somehow it was due to our "free will"... that we seem to have had before we ever even existed...
And finally, although you (Christians) claim we have "free will"... you also claim prophecies where God directs all the action to provide an outcome.... thus overriding any concept of "free will" of the characters involved.
For instance, does the fellow who turns out to be the Antichrist have "free will"? Can he change his mind and end up not being the Antichrist? Could he become a Christian even and we just don't have an Antichrist because the dude selected to be the Antichrist changed his mind?
Somehow you (Christians) take this morass of contradictions, complications and conundrums and rationalize it to make sense.
Others cannot, will not and do not. Yet we are the bad guys because we refuse to abandon simple logic.
While scripture tells us that God has used certain people for His purposes, isn’t true you have a choice to do good or evil? To believe in God or not?
Mankind has also done a lot of good, something your god could have taught us, but according to the Bible, did not. We abolished slavery, we invented medicine, logic, science. Your god allegedly created a universe where km wide pieces of rock fly through space, one of which wiped out the dinosaurs 60+ million years ago. What did they do to your god before man had even evolved?
God did teach us good from bad-the Ten Commandments.
no that is not the Jewish view at all.
the post above is spreading mis-information. if someone is taught that about Judaism, then it comes from a source which is in my view malicious.
the jewish view is that there is no "hell" for anyone because hell does not exist. Hell and eternal torment is an invention of Crstnty (circa the year 200 CE) and adopted by Islam (circa the year 600 CE). https://www.city-data.com/forum/63741617-post119.html
Crstnty and Islam do not recognize reincarnation, they have hell and eternal torment
Buddhism, Judaism (and other religions) have reincarnation, there is no eternal punishment.
In Judaism (circa 3500 BCE), it's not necessary for a person to be Jewish to end up in Olam Haba (World to Come) or Gan Eden; it depends on a person's relationship with God. And in Judaism there is no hell. For anyone. Hell is an invention of Crstnty. The Jewish view is that God is available and accessible to everyone regardless of a person's path of religion and spirituality.
"The righteous of the nations [non Jews] have a share in Olam Ha-Ba. You don’t have to be Jewish to fulfill the divine purpose for which you were created." Judaism views all of humankind as created in the image of God, and cares about the physical and spiritual well-being of all humans.
Thanks Tzaph! I just hope you are wrong about reincarnation. I would hate to repeat this journey without the benefit of anything I have learned and experienced in this life. The red-in-tooth-and-claw nature of this existence is anathema to me.
God did teach us good from bad-the Ten Commandments.
So until the time of Moses, people did not know good from bad?
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The red-in-tooth-and-claw nature of this existence is anathema to me.
