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I'm not really sold on the CSA thing...there are definitely connections to one another, but Providence and Boston are very much their own places.
Providence and Boston make for an interesting discussion. Providence is definitely the largest of Boston's satellite cities, but I'm not sure to what extent it should stand out from a Lowell or Worcester when thinking about this issue. As a Boston resident, my main reason for a trip to Providence is either Roger Williams Park or TF Green Airport. But I can't think of a single reason to go to Lowell or Worcester. All three cities have commuter rail to Boston, and significant economic intercourse with Boston. And depending on where you live, Providence is closer (for me it is, as an example).
The only big arguments I see for not including Providence with Boston are 1) that brief stretch of swamp that leaves a swath of undeveloped land between the two cities; 2) Providence is in a different state. You can't make both of those statements about any other satellite. But just the same, Providence seems pretty hooked in.
Providence and Boston make for an interesting discussion. Providence is definitely the largest of Boston's satellite cities, but I'm not sure to what extent it should stand out from a Lowell or Worcester when thinking about this issue. As a Boston resident, my main reason for a trip to Providence is either Roger Williams Park or TF Green Airport. But I can't think of a single reason to go to Lowell or Worcester. All three cities have commuter rail to Boston, and significant economic intercourse with Boston. And depending on where you live, Providence is closer (for me it is, as an example).
The only big arguments I see for not including Providence with Boston are 1) that brief stretch of swamp that leaves a swath of undeveloped land between the two cities; 2) Providence is in a different state. You can't make both of those statements about any other satellite. But just the same, Providence seems pretty hooked in.
Hyde park is what 1/2 to Providence, lol.
How about Tewksbury, or Wilmington they are all swampy between Boston and Lowell, and Manchester meats both those credentails.
Hyde park is what 1/2 to Providence, lol.
How about Tewksbury, or Wilmington they are all swampy between Boston and Lowell, and Manchester meats both those credentails.
All the more reason to include Providence in the CSA, IMO.
There is zero question, Providence is in Boston's CSA. Been so for a long time. Transplants from Boston are what brought Providence back from the dead in the 1980's. MBTA rail service to RI keeps expanding, plus 'Providence' is really a combination of Pawtucket, East Providence, Cranston and Warwick aka 'Providence and Vicinity'. If (as a kid) you go to school in Providence, you take field trips to Boston.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryAlan
All the more reason to include Providence in the CSA, IMO.
Providence and Boston make for an interesting discussion. Providence is definitely the largest of Boston's satellite cities, but I'm not sure to what extent it should stand out from a Lowell or Worcester when thinking about this issue. As a Boston resident, my main reason for a trip to Providence is either Roger Williams Park or TF Green Airport. But I can't think of a single reason to go to Lowell or Worcester. All three cities have commuter rail to Boston, and significant economic intercourse with Boston. And depending on where you live, Providence is closer (for me it is, as an example).
The only big arguments I see for not including Providence with Boston are 1) that brief stretch of swamp that leaves a swath of undeveloped land between the two cities; 2) Providence is in a different state. You can't make both of those statements about any other satellite. But just the same, Providence seems pretty hooked in.
Good point. I do believe Providence should be in the CSA...but what I was meaning was I'm not sold on using the CSA as the base form of measurement. I feel like MSA is a great gauge of the city and its surrounding areas, while the CSA is looking more at the expanded region of influence.
Providence is fantastic place by the way. Their Asian Massage Parlors are to die for! hahaha
Boston sports a GDP 15% higher than Philly. I'm not ready to call that 'significantly larger'.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Philly vs. Boston CSA is one of the worst comparisons due to Boston's isolation and Philly's proximity to NYC. In reality (a place that does not exist according to some folks on this forum) Philly has an economy equal to Boston, likely larger. But that's in the real world. In the world where government statistics are infallible, Philly's CSA GDP is 15% lower than Boston's. No big deal.
Without Trenton/Mercer in Philly's CSA it will remain a patently false comparison. It should be noted that the Delware Valley Regional Planning Commission (DVRPC) still uses a modified definition of Philadelphia's CSA which included Trenton/Mercer. That's a clear sign that the U.S. government screwed up when they took trento/Mercer away from Philly's CSA. But then again, did they screw up?
From Wikipedia - "The Bureau of the Census does not always follow its rules where they may involve Federal employees. Mercer County, NJ, had historically been included in what had been known as the Philadelphia-Wilmington-Trenton, PA-NJ-DE-MD CMSA, because the commuting patterns are as strong between Mercer County and Philadelphia as they are between it and New York (historical trivia: Princeton University is located in the county precisely because it is halfway between the two cities) and most of the major metropolitan media that cover Trenton are located in Philadelphia, not NYC (the Philadelphia TV stations maintain Trenton bureaus but not the New York TV stations, for instance); Trenton was moved from one to the other not because of any major shift in commuting patterns but because the cost of living adjustment for Federal employees is higher for the New York CMSA than for the Philadelphia CMSA. (A similar case of the bureau not following its rules involves the CSA that should be called Baltimore-Washington but is called Washington-Baltimore, a clear violation of bureau policy that names multicentric CSAs and MSAs in declining order of central city populations; Baltimore is the bigger of the two.) The shift was made solely to give Federal employees working in Mercer County a pay raise without special legislation."
From the DVRPC website: "DVRPC is dedicated to uniting the region’s elected officials, planning professionals and the public with the common vision of making a great region even greater. Shaping the way we live, work and play, DVRPC builds consensus on improving transportation, promoting smart growth, protecting the environment, and enhancing the economy. We serve a diverse region of nine counties: Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery and Philadelphia in Pennsylvania; and Burlington, Camden, Gloucester and Mercer in New Jersey."
Wow there Dub, I can truly appreciate the time you invested to making your post, it was insightful and I see the situation your describing a la perspective of regional planning commission.
However with all things said and done Dub, we may need to agree to disagree. Trenton is gone, all of Mercer is. Its with NYC and from my Google searches, its not coming back. This talk of the census issuing a "position statement", if you can provide to me the link where they admit it was a mistake and that its coming back, where they literally say that it would be easier to let it play a vivid candid of the situation. I believe remembering while looking up on search that Trenton-Ewing is an MSA of its own independent of both NYC and Philly but consumed by NYC on CSA?
As for GDP and size, refer to my post on 8/21/2011 at 2:19 PM for a counter balance. Philly and Boston roughly have the same output with the same accessible range of population with a minor differences. The remainder of your post, we shall agree to disagree as I simply cant come to see reality in a different way regarding this topic.
But Boston's Vibrancy spreads further out, Philly has Center City and University City, Parts of Northern Liberties, while Boston Got the Finantial District, back Bay, Chinatown, North End, Central Square(Cambridge) Kendel square and Harvard Square (cambridge)
What is your definition of vibrancy?
Philly is pretty vibrant from 2nd to 50th Street, and the entire quadrant of south Philly/center City . East of Broad from the Stadiums to Girard.
Wow there Dub, I can truly appreciate the time you invested to making your post, it was insightful and I see the situation your describing a la perspective of regional planning commission.
However with all things said and done Dub, we may need to agree to disagree. Trenton is gone, all of Mercer is. Its with NYC and from my Google searches, its not coming back. This talk of the census issuing a "position statement", if you can provide to me the link where they admit it was a mistake and that its coming back, where they literally say that it would be easier to let it sink in.
As for GDP and size, refer to my post on 8/21/2011 at 2:19 PM for a counter balance. The remainder of your post, we shall agree to disagree as I simply cant come to see reality in a different way regarding this topic.
Actually no, the census has already a position statement on the error that was a technicality and resulted in a pay increase for those that used the loophole to make the move. the census has already stated this will be resolved in the 2010 final MSA/CSA designations that come out in late 2012/early 2013. I know the area well. I grew up very close to the Bucks/Mercer border and in real life the break is inconsistent with reality. Endo of the day it change the function etc on anything but does act to move important real estate from one area to another. Oddly Mercer could potentially be a county that links both Philly and NYC as one CSA so long as it regains the MSA rates it missed by .1% in 2000. Additionally the Census has already issued their position to combine the UA (Urbanized Areas) of NYC and Philly because it is continuously developed and 30 million people in the footprint.
On your not seeing a reality I will guess that based on internet searches you have developed an opinion, far from a reality that exists in the real world but we can agree to disagree, one opinion fueled with google serches and one based on real-world experience.
I'm not really sold on the CSA thing...there are definitely connections to one another, but Providence and Boston are very much their own places.
True, but Providence is so closely linked to Boston that the MBTA has commuter rail service to both downtown Providence and TF Green Airport. So, without a doubt, it is part of Boston's CSA.
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