Varmint shooting in Central Wyoming (Casper, Laramie: sale, insurance, buying)

[MRVphotog]

Originally Posted by shadowwalker

These were the same ones that wanted the damn wolves in Yellowstone. Now they are destroying the elk and moose along with deer populations. And the idiots that wanted them. Well they are on the bigger ideas and most don't live here anyway. They just remember the warm feeling they get. When they think about the wolves being back "home".

With all due respect the above comment is completely inaccurate. I was a photog for the Casper Star-Tribune and since I was based in Jackson I followed the reintroduction and even tho I have returned to my homeland in New England I still keep close tabs on the situation.

Wolves were not reintroduced because "They just remember the warm feeling they get. When they think about the wolves being back" but for sound scientific reasons.

Sure, the ranchers were against it, understandbly so, but they are paid for wolf kills and the wolves are in process of being delisted as they have grown in numbers faster than anyone thought.

As far as the elk population... griz, the winter, hunting and drought are the biggest killers. Since wolves were gone, about 75 years ago, the number of elk and bison have exploded. Bison have to venture outside of the park to find food and the state of Montana shoots them out of fear of Brucilosis, even tho the disease has never be transferred from bison to cattle. They call it a hunt but its like shooting parked cars. The ironic fact is the disease was brought to this country by cattlemen bringing in cattle from Europe years ago and they transferred the disease to wildlife.

A recent study by the Wyoming Game and Fish in cooperation with the US Fish and Wildlife Service shows the wolves cull sick and old elk therefore making the elk population healthier.

[Earniefan]

logicskier,

Wyoming has a "crappy reputation"?? On what planet do you hail from?


About the plague, It was about 10 years ago I think when they gassed out a bunch of prairie dog farms and they all died in their dens and then the new prairie dogs started habitating those dens and eating them and this is what started the plague. So guess that shoots the idea that vacuuming them is a good idea, huh?!

[Earniefan]

"Sure, the ranchers were against it, understandbly so, but they are paid for wolf kills and the wolves are in process of being delisted as they have grown in numbers faster than anyone thought."

What? Are you talking about Wyoming. Ranchers have to hide the fact that they kill the wolves when they are on their properties. These dam things have been found clear down on I-15 going into Ft. Collins or Denver, someone jog my memory. It was tagged and had been hit by a car so they know that it came from Yellowstone.

As far as the Elk populations go, talk to some hunters who have hunted the same areas for years, they will tell you the Elk populations have declined rapidly in those same areas in the last few years. Areas around Dubois and south of Jackson. I suppose this is just a coincidence or that these men just forgot how to hunt!

[Yac]

Everybody please respect each other and have a civil discussion, no need to get emotional.
Yac.

[Tyster]

Artie wrote: "I'm looking forward to the day that the bird flu comes through and culls the human population and gives the planet back to the animals."

Humans are animals. And if you want the human population culled maybe you can lead by example and start with yourself.

Sorry, but you brought this on yourself.

[MRVphotog]

Originally Posted by Earniefan

"Sure, the ranchers were against it, understandbly so, but they are paid for wolf kills and the wolves are in process of being delisted as they have grown in numbers faster than anyone thought."

What? Are you talking about Wyoming. Ranchers have to hide the fact that they kill the wolves when they are on their properties. These dam things have been found clear down on I-15 going into Ft. Collins or Denver, someone jog my memory. It was tagged and had been hit by a car so they know that it came from Yellowstone.

As far as the Elk populations go, talk to some hunters who have hunted the same areas for years, they will tell you the Elk populations have declined rapidly in those same areas in the last few years. Areas around Dubois and south of Jackson. I suppose this is just a coincidence or that these men just forgot how to hunt!

By wolf kills I am referring to stock(cattle,sheep) that a wolf kills, not the killing of the wolves by ranchers. They are paid, as they should be, when this happens. It's very complicated I am just talking about this in a general manner.

As I mentioned the WG&F are aware of the declining elk in the NW and agree that the wolves have caused a below threshold 25/100 calf/cow ratio in areas around YNP which would affect hunting. That's why they are pushing hard for delisting so they can be hunted if need be. Still being hotly debated.

I lived about a mile from one of the many state elk feeding grounds(Horse Creek). You should see how many elk lived there thru the winter. Up the road is the National Elk Refuge on the northeast boundary of the Town of Jackson. 8-10,000 winter there, half migrate from the southern part of Yellowstone.

Hunting elk is an excellent way to manage the herd but since there is no hunting in Yellowstone they needed a diferent tool to manage the animals there. They brought back the animal that 100 years ago helped keep the natural balance, that's the pro wolf stance.

It's still very controversial, probably always will be

[sunsprit]

Ranchers getting compensation for all the "confirmed wolf kills?"

Not on your life. Absent a federal wildlife officer witnessing the actual event, or a rancher having a video of the kill, the requirements for proving a wolf predation loss by carcass inspection are so stringent as to be virtually impossible to prove. The Fed's are paying out only a small fraction of the losses to date.

By the time a rancher discovers a "kill" in the herd, and then can locate a federal officer and get them to the site ... there's little evidence left that will back up the predation. Even if the rancher witnessed the killing and took pictures, he still has to have the official confirmation to apply for the compensation (which is far below FMV for the livestock) ....

Notice, I said "apply for" the compensation. The funding for the program is limited, and even though rancher may have a confirmed wolf kill, it doesn't mean that he gets paid.

Also, unlike many other predators ... wolves get very organized and pursue their prey working together, and sometimes, just kill for sport. They'll stalk and kill livestock, eat a minimal amount, and then go kill another head of livestock ... leaving the bulk of the first kill to other predators of opportunity to eat (coyotes, hawks, etc). Some times, the wolves don't even eat the kill at all.

My friends with ranches around Wyoming with elk herds around them are seeing them decimated by the wolves. There's no compensation for them, either, but they're seeing their livlihoods going away because the guided hunts cannot satisfy the hunters much longer, if even now.

Further, the Feds have clearly demonstrated an anti-rancher mindset in this area. For example, a Wyoming rancher chanced upon a Fed team bringing in some wolves onto his private property (trespassed with a helicopter crew, no less) with any notice or any permission. They were caught releasing wolves in an area that was the ranch's spring calving grounds. The rancher went through all the legal and procedural actions he could limited by his funds and sought redress through the criminal system against the Feds and the individual wildlife officers for trespassing. All charges were dropped by higher up's in the Fed organization; no compensation to the rancher, no trespassing charges upheld by the Feds ... but he was left with a wolf family in his calving grounds, at great risk to his livestock and significant undue expense to patrol.

The wolves are being delisted, but ... for all practical intents and purposes ... are still a protected species. The Fed's now have many times over the target number of wolf packs in Wyoming, and still insist upon protected status for all the wolves in the area beyond Yellowstone. Given the ability of the wolves to reproduce and adapt, I fear that they'll continue to spread far beyond the boundaries of the original re-introduction areas. They could literally spread into highly populated towns, and possibly ... cities.

The viewpoint of some of these "animal lovers" just might change when the decisions they've imposed upon us come home to their doorsteps ....

[MRVphotog]

When I said it was complicated and controversial sunprit's post show's some of the problems with this issue. The payment plan is not working very well. Interestingly, part of the funding for this payment program comes from the pro-wolf organizations. There is a flood of " I told you so" feelings out there.

There is alot of anti-fed feelings in the west, most probably richly deserved. Heck, the formation of Teton National Park was a total scam with John D. R and the feds worked together to pull the wool over the local ranchers and other land owners.

I think the wolf introduction plan had good intentions but the packs have grown too fast and are leaving the park in significant numbers. I read just yesterday about a wolf incident(currently unconfirmed) coming from as far away as Kemmerer. That's a long ways away even to drive. And so it goes.

[sunsprit]

MRVphotog ... "the packs have grown too fast and are leaving the park".

Three observations:

1) The wolves ability to adapt, survive, and multiply has been and remains a big unknown to their supporters and "scientists". The Fed has clearly reneged on it's agreement to establish a certain number of packs by maintaining a "protected" status for a species that clearly has greatly exceeded their expectations.

2) I've never heard of a wolf being trained to know where the boundaries of Yellowstone national park are drawn on the map. The wolves are leaving because that's what they do ... seek out hunting and denning grounds to satisfy them, not humans.

3) Funding for wolf kills to ranchers coming from the pro-wolf people was a ploy to gain acceptance for possible damage, but given in bad faith. The requirements to prove a "wolf kill" for compensation are an impossible sham, what with specific bite marks, footprints, etc ... and then the on-site officer will frequently "decide" that the wolf prints in the area came after the death by other causes (disease, poison plants, other predators) with no supporting evidence. Do you have any idea what a necropsy costs for a livestock owner to prove it wasn't an internal problem, or disease, or a calf failing to thrive?

[Wyomiles]

Yep , A yellowstone wolf, with collar, was killed on I-70 ,on the eastern side of the mountains. They have overpopulated Wyoming and are on the move.

I have heard that the deer are so thick back east that they are a big problem, maybe wyoming should send some wolves out there ?