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A sales environment is hit or miss. When I worked in sales, I came and went as I pleased because if you’re sitting in the office too much, you’re not making money. When I worked inside sales, then I needed to be in the office at all hours because the best time to catch potential business was either early in the morning or later in the evening. I got used to coming and going as I needed because how I worked produced results.
When I first left sales, I didn’t think leaving a little early or coming in later was a big deal as a salary employee. I had former employers years prior that were okay with leaving early on a Friday or taking the occasional longer lunch to run to the bank. The main concern was to get the job done. I didn’t understand that for this particular employer it was a problem and whatever history I had in the work world at other companies didn’t matter to them.
When companies are like this, it either stems from legitimate job requirements, overbearing management policies, or someone/a group abused the goodwill and suddenly people were leaving early for any and every reason (kids, the dog, airport run, family in town, cable install, doctor’s appointment, etc). The problem with leaving early is that people do it spur of the moment, like suddenly these things occurred, when in most cases, they haven’t. Abusers wait until the last minute to say anything because they know if they inform their manager ahead of time, there’s opportunity for the manager to say they can’t leave early that coming day for whatever reason. Or the abuser is hoping to avoid having to use PTO/vacation time/personal time/sick time because they want to save it for when they are really taking off.
Enough of this from enough people and it becomes a problem. Company policies no longer matter and everyone is leaving early and then coming in late as they “need”.
I’m not a fan of it personally because I’m a grown adult, but it’s the abusers that make it difficult for everyone else. You’re going to have to change your approach to leaving early. Understand what is expected and work within the system or start searching to leave. Oh, being at a company for over a year and claiming ignorance of policies is not an excuse. You can’t assume what one company does carries over to a different company. It’s easy to inquire and get the info. This is where it sounds like you expect to be able to do as you like regardless. They don’t care that you managed 25 people before somewhere else. It’s irrelevant here.
As far as the sick days go, I don’t believe 4 days by this time of year is excessive, but when coupled with leaving early, it’s very likely there is a case being built. You should take a temperature on where your performance stands with management.
You're exactly right, I shouldn't have assumed. I haven't been treated like this since my first job as a cook at an A&W root beer restaurant in 1976 so I forgot that companies actually do treat people this way.
They’re trying to make a case against you honestly...that’s not excessive. Was there a pattern to the sick days? If they’re all Monday’s or Friday’s that may have raised red flags. Leaving early - were you hired for set hours?? Where I am you come and go as you wish as long as your job gets done. They generally want you in the office from 9-3 so I often work 6-3 so I can spend the afternoon with my son. If they want you there til x time they should tell you and you should oblige.
I’d be looking for a new job even harder than you have been because whether it’s voluntary or not you may need one soon.
My manager shook his head and said he doesn't have a problem with anything--but obviously it's not up to him. He told me he doesn't know why me and another guy report to him because he has no say in anything.
Ugh. Well, sounds like you're looking for a new gig, so that's good. It would be one thing if your immediate manager said "Oh, don't worry about it. I told her you are doing a great job and that any personal time is not a big deal as he always makes sure all is covered." But the fact that he essentially said he can't do or say anything about it, that would leave me super uncomfortable. Your manager should have your back in a situation like this, not shrug his shoulders and say "sorry, can't do much about it!!"
While you're looking, try to get some clarity on the rules so you can abide by them for now. What you described didn't sound excessive to me, especially since you're salaried. I'd be curious if she ever noted the times you maybe stayed late to finish something or to make-up the personal time. Maybe you can cc: her on the email notifications/requests to your direct manager for future times?
Last Friday I was talked to about excessive absenteeism. So far this year I've taken 3.9 hours of personal time and 4 sick days (yes someone upstairs evidently documents all your time even you leave 15 minutes early). Then I was asked if I ever received an employee handbook (they couldn't find a form we are supposed to sign which is why they asked me). I said no I haven't (I've been here 1.5 years). I'm having such a hard time with this because I was always treated like a professional throughout my entire career (I'm 58). I never treated my 25 direct reports this way either. It was always a give and take.
My questions to you are 1) Do you think this is excessive absenteeism? 2) If there is no written policy about personal time or sick time is there anything an employee can do? I perused the entire employee manual and there is nothing. 3) How would you handle this if you thought this was absurd and knew you were stuck there? I'm seriously considering asking to become hourly so I don't have to deal with this. (I have already been trying to find a new job but have been turned down twice in the past year). Looking forward to your thoughts.
I am sorry you are in bind.
Perhaps you took time off when there was a big meeting planned and you missed it and your presence was pivotal to it. Maybe this happened more than once.
Sad to say there are companies who will force retirement at 55+ and from a logical standpoint yours is using any means possible to effect a dismissal. It's very unfair, yes. Oft times the company will offer a settlement but if you have only worked there for 1.5 years it won't be much if considered at all. It sounds like you have been looking for another job anyway so I wouldn't battle too hard. Using the company's policy as a buffer won't help because absenteeism being frowned upon goes without saying and everyone knows this.
This is the first time in my career I've been treated this way, yes. I've always worked for companies that didn't care about the trivial absences I am referring to in this thread. These companies knew I would stay late or work weekends and do what it took to get the job done, so when it came to needing to leave early or some sick days each year they didn't care. Who did they care about? The people that would abuse it. The ones who always needed to leave an hour early every Friday or called in sick two or three times a month.
Right. Well that makes sense--abusing it. And it seems you're not doing that. It depends on how high up you are, too, as to their handwringing about leaving 15 mins. early, and that kind of thing.
So, to what do you attribute this sudden scrutiny? Is there someone new in the position above your immediate boss? And how would that person know, if you occasionally leave a little early? I suppose it could be as another poster said; 4 sick leaves per company policy might trigger a review. But if so, you probably would have encountered that before.
Made up the time already meaning "I need to leave 30 minutes early today I've made up the time". That's how they are here even if you are salaried. So the day I left 30 minutes early I had stayed 30 minutes late the day before. Mind you I just sat here and cruised the internet because I had nothing to do in those 30 minutes, but that is beside the point.
Well, if this is the case, I don't know what the fuss is about. Did you ask the person? Did you tell her you stay late the day before, when you know you need to leave early the next day? And if so, what did she say? If you've done this past years, why is it an issue now?
Well, if this is the case, I don't know what the fuss is about. Did you ask the person? Did you tell her you stay late the day before, when you know you need to leave early the next day? And if so, what did she say? If you've done this past years, why is it an issue now?
More info needed, OP.
All of this is communicated, sometimes overcommunicated. I am not sure what additional information you need, and I don't know what you mean by doing this in past years since I've only been here a year and a half. The bottom line is the Big Guy wants everyone here all the time. If it were up to him he would deny everybody's vacation. Technically he is excellent, but a leader he's not.
Although I agree with others in that it sounds like you leaving early repeatedly is probably cause for the conversation with you. It may not be the amount of sick days (4), it may be that you've called in sick 4 separate times. In other words, if you are truly sick....so sick you can't work.....that typically takes a few days to recover from. So if someone is saying they're sick and only gone one day (Monday/Friday, ahem) that is a red flag for me as a manager.
As usual people reach too far.
Perhaps people don't want to use all their sick days at once and want to reserve for the days when they legitimately can't work. I have never taken more than one sick day consecutively. Ever.
Stop clocking your employees, it isn't going to help your retention rates.
Last Friday I was talked to about excessive absenteeism. So far this year I've taken 3.9 hours of personal time and 4 sick days (yes someone upstairs evidently documents all your time even you leave 15 minutes early). Then I was asked if I ever received an employee handbook (they couldn't find a form we are supposed to sign which is why they asked me). I said no I haven't (I've been here 1.5 years). I'm having such a hard time with this because I was always treated like a professional throughout my entire career (I'm 58). I never treated my 25 direct reports this way either. It was always a give and take.
My questions to you are 1) Do you think this is excessive absenteeism? 2) If there is no written policy about personal time or sick time is there anything an employee can do? I perused the entire employee manual and there is nothing. 3) How would you handle this if you thought this was absurd and knew you were stuck there? I'm seriously considering asking to become hourly so I don't have to deal with this. (I have already been trying to find a new job but have been turned down twice in the past year). Looking forward to your thoughts.
I'd be more wary of a company who didn't have an attendance policy than one who told you exactly what happened at each occurrence. Through fear of the unknown, it pushes people to give thought each time they think of calling in.
At my company (great, by the way) we are told that sick time used is part of your performance review. I have used 5 hours of actual illness time this year. The rest I was able to give advance notice enough to use personal time and not use any of my vacation.
Some companies will not consider you for rehire if you leave on active corrective action. Some companies will not rehire employees at all, as a general rule. (UPS requires a manager's authorization to be rehired - if that manager is no longer employed, you're SOL). Talk directly to HR about their rehire policy, and make your decision armed with that knowledge, combined with if you think you can live within these newly discovered policies without getting yourself in trouble. Think of the short term and the long term.
All of this is communicated, sometimes overcommunicated. I am not sure what additional information you need, and I don't know what you mean by doing this in past years since I've only been here a year and a half. The bottom line is the Big Guy wants everyone here all the time. If it were up to him he would deny everybody's vacation. Technically he is excellent, but a leader he's not.
Well, if you've been there a year and a half, and this year is just past half over, it means you were there for most of last year. So, the questions remain relevant; did this manger say anything to you last year about sick leave or minor incidents of leaving early (that you compensated for anyway, but staying late the day before)? If not, do you have any inkling why there was a change? Do you know of any co-workers who have also been called on the carpet for one or both of these reasons, or do you think it might just be you?
If you switch to hourly, it will be worse. Hourly employees generally speaking aren't supposed to leave early, either, and sick leave and other time off often are equally micro-managed.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 08-16-2018 at 04:15 PM..
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