Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Thanks Virgode. The issue that tips me towards Patty is several red flags, of course, I am not a forensic psychologist, nor have I ever met Patty Ramsey...but there is a disconnect I identified during the interviews, it was always a "pity party for ME"...the focus was never on identifiying the killer, but feel SORRY for ME...a common trait among child abusers.
I would have given her more benefit of a doubt, and credibility, if she had actually identified discrepencies in the investigation, and given information about issues that had not been ruled out, leads or clues for the investigation, to further it along...
Last edited by jasper12; 06-15-2012 at 08:55 AM..
Reason: edit
Yeah that doesn't say genitalia exams are inherently traumatic. It says if the doctor is cognizant of the child's feelings, empathetic and professional, genitalia exams are nonthreatening.
Not in so many words (I'm sure I could find it spelled out somewhere) but do YOU enjoy genital examinations?
Answer - No.
This is why they recommend ANASTHESIA for some children, and NO EXAMINATION for others.
There would not be special guidelines if it was considered an ordinary, non-stressful part of a physical check up.
Regardless - even if they are handled properly and safely, 30 specialist visits in 3 years is excessive, especially as JBR's physical health was perfect.
Was Patsy suffering Munchausens by Proxy?
The excessive attention to JB's otherwise perfect health would suggest that she may well be...and it would explain quite a lot. Patsy had also recently been given the "all clear" for cancer. Maybe she missed the attention of medical professionals?
Munchausen by proxy syndrome (MBPS) is a relatively rare form of child abuse that involves the exaggeration or fabrication of illnesses or symptoms by a primary caretaker...In MBPS, an individual — usually a parent or caregiver— causes or fabricates symptoms in a child.The adult deliberately misleads others (particularly medical professionals), and may go as far as to actually cause symptoms in the child through poisoning, medication, or even suffocation. In most cases (85%), the mother is responsible for causing the illness or symptoms. Typically, the cause is a need for attention and sympathy from doctors, nurses, and other professionals. Some experts believe that it isn't just the attention that's gained from the "illness" of the child that drives this behavior, but also the satisfaction in deceiving individuals who they consider to be more important and powerful than themselves. Because the parent or caregiver appears to be so caring and attentive, often no one suspects any wrongdoing. Diagnosis is made extremely difficult due to the the ability of the parent or caregiver to manipulate doctors and induce symptoms in their child.
Often, the perpetrator is familiar with the medical profession and knowledgeable about how to induce illness or impairment in the child. Medical personnel often overlook the possibility of MBPS because it goes against the belief that parents and caregivers would never deliberately hurt their child.
To paraphrase Dr Cyril Wecht - This is a game that had been played before...but this time it went tragically wrong.
Last edited by MsAnnThrope; 06-15-2012 at 01:20 PM..
I've mentioned this before, but Patsy calling her daughter " that child" repeatedly is very bizarre. Think of it this way, moms, do you call your daughter "that child"? It is very de-personifying.Not normal and she did this many times. It's not a small thing.Ours speech is very psychologically telling.It shows a distancing & the last thing you'd see in a mom mourning the homicide of a young daughter.No, it isn't hard evidence, but another interesting fact.
I've mentioned this before, but Patsy calling her daughter " that child" repeatedly is very bizarre. Think of it this way, moms, do you call your daughter "that child"? It is very de-personifying.Not normal and she did this many times. It's not a small thing.Ours speech is very psychologically telling.It shows a distancing & the last thing you'd see in a mom mourning the homicide of a young daughter.No, it isn't hard evidence, but another interesting fact.
Correct. "That child" is distancing language, and she said it over and over. She rarely used "my daughter" in her speech.
If you know a bit about statement analysis it is glaringly obvious she is guilty, just from the way she speaks. John also.
I believe Burke should be compelled to give evidence as an adult. This will not happen because if he does, and tells the truth, the case will be solved. No one in the Colorado DA's office wants that.
I am not a forensic psychologist, nor have I ever met Patsy Ramsey...but there is a disconnect I identified during the interviews, it was always a "pity party for ME"...the focus was never on identifiying the killer, but feel SORRY for ME...a common trait among child abusers.
Is it? Or is it a common trait among parents of murdered children? I don’t know. Would you or I be hysterical or deadened if our child was suddenly found murdered in our own home?
As someone said on another thread about the mother of the child who was killed by a dingo, one reason she was a suspect (and served for a crime she didn't commit) was because she also seemed emotionally deadened and disconnected. I don’t think emotional reaction is an accurate gauge of guilt or innocence.
Not in so many words (I'm sure I could find it spelled out somewhere) but do YOU enjoy genital examinations?
Answer - No.
This is why they recommend ANASTHESIA for some children, and NO EXAMINATION for others.
There would not be special guidelines if it was considered an ordinary, non-stressful part of a physical check up.
Regardless - even if they are handled properly and safely, 30 specialist visits in 3 years is excessive, especially as JBR's physical health was perfect.
Was Patsy suffering Munchausens by Proxy?
The excessive attention to JB's otherwise perfect health would suggest that she may well be...and it would explain quite a lot. Patsy had also recently been given the "all clear" for cancer. Maybe she missed the attention of medical professionals?
Munchausen by proxy syndrome (MBPS) is a relatively rare form of child abuse that involves the exaggeration or fabrication of illnesses or symptoms by a primary caretaker...In MBPS, an individual — usually a parent or caregiver— causes or fabricates symptoms in a child.The adult deliberately misleads others (particularly medical professionals), and may go as far as to actually cause symptoms in the child through poisoning, medication, or even suffocation. In most cases (85%), the mother is responsible for causing the illness or symptoms. Typically, the cause is a need for attention and sympathy from doctors, nurses, and other professionals. Some experts believe that it isn't just the attention that's gained from the "illness" of the child that drives this behavior, but also the satisfaction in deceiving individuals who they consider to be more important and powerful than themselves. Because the parent or caregiver appears to be so caring and attentive, often no one suspects any wrongdoing. Diagnosis is made extremely difficult due to the the ability of the parent or caregiver to manipulate doctors and induce symptoms in their child.
Often, the perpetrator is familiar with the medical profession and knowledgeable about how to induce illness or impairment in the child. Medical personnel often overlook the possibility of MBPS because it goes against the belief that parents and caregivers would never deliberately hurt their child.
To paraphrase Dr Cyril Wecht - This is a game that had been played before...but this time it went tragically wrong.
It doesn't say so in ANY words. No, I do not enjoy genital exams but they also do not traumatize me.
I've mentioned this before, but Patsy calling her daughter " that child" repeatedly is very bizarre. Think of it this way, moms, do you call your daughter "that child"? It is very de-personifying.Not normal and she did this many times. It's not a small thing.Ours speech is very psychologically telling.It shows a distancing & the last thing you'd see in a mom mourning the homicide of a young daughter.No, it isn't hard evidence, but another interesting fact.
Could it be a dialect thing? I have no idea, just throwing it out there. She was from W. Virginia and I know they, like all other areas, have certain phrases and words they use.
Could it be a dialect thing? I have no idea, just throwing it out there. She was from W. Virginia and I know they, like all other areas, have certain phrases and words they use.
No.
The basics of statement analysis show that the same phrases are used, over and over, by humans. We are extremely good at it.
Even in a different language, it would be normal for a bereaved mother to say "my baby", "my daughter", "jonbenet", or even "our baby", "our daughter".
THAT CHILD is not usual speech in ANY language, and is distancing.
This is only one example of the many, many clues in her speech as to her true feelings. John also.
They rarely called her by her name, Jonbenet. Patsy almost NEVER used the phrase "my daughter" and absolutely never used "my baby", which I would probably use considering JBR was only 6 - a baby in my book.
Mind you I wouldn't dress my 6 year old up like a hooker and put her on stage either....
For those of you who feel the Ramseys are responsible, whats your opinion about the stun gun marks on JonBenets neck and back?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
