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You did see the Wiki article, didn't you? The facts that support my argument were right there; cited and everything. Several times I've brought up that Deep South is mostly synonymous with the Cotton South, so why haven't you acknowledged this?
All I'm trying to get you to do is look at the bigger picture. Even with our opinions, the differences are that mine is more inclusive, while yours is needlessly strict and based on arbitrary factors. Things like grits, boiled peanut stands, or even the Black Belt are not synonymous with the Deep South.
I read the Wiki article - even quoted from it. But is that really all you've got, other than your opinion? I mean, that's one source - and it's Wiki. Come on, man!
Sorry, but along with my opinion, I've given many, many more sources to support that opinion.
I thought I made this clear, but apparently you missed it. I have lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, and Texas. I've lived in the American South for over 35 years.
Believe me, I can tell the difference between Southern accents and dialects.
What part of "I was born in New Orleans" did I miss? That was supposed to be one of the things that distinguished you as one of the foremost authorities on all things Deep South. So you believe me too: I too, can tell the difference between deep south accents, and I have lived in most of the places you have and visited all the rest extensively -- plus Mississippi. There is not singular deep south accent and for you to act as though New Orleans' accent wouldnt automatically exclude it from being any deep south variant when one of your main reasons for excluding East Texas from a deep south categorization was its atypical deep south accent, demolishes your credibility in my opinion.
Now - the Wikipedia articles make an interesting distinction:
The Deep South: various definitions, usually including Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, and South Carolina. Occasionally, parts of adjoining states are included (sections of East Texas, delta areas of Arkansas and Tennessee, and parts of Florida such as the Panhandle and the north-central part of the state). Southern United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interesting that you cite wikipedia...from your own link:
When "Deep South" first made its appearance in print "during the second third of the twentieth century" it originally applied to the states/areas of Mississippi, north Louisiana, southern parts of Alabama and Georgia, and northern Florida. This was the part of the South considered to be the "most Southern" of all.[7]Later, the general definition expanded to include the whole of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina, often taking in bordering areas of East Texas and the original inclusion of north Florida. In its broadest application today, the Deep South is considered to be "an area roughly coextensive with the old cotton belt from eastern North Carolina through South Carolina west into East Texas, with extentions north and south along the Mississippi." [6]
I agree with this statement actually. I realize that SOME PEOPLE include sections of Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Florida in their definition of the Deep South, though most people (apparently outside this forum however! LOL) don't. That's OK.
Nah...its the deep south..you just dont know it yet..lol
Interesting that you
That's also why it boils down to opinion rather than actual facts. Which is why neither "side" of this debate can win it - though one side or the other can possibly articulate why they hold their particular opinions more concisely than the other.
From my research, and experience, I conclude that though East Texas does have some traits of the culture of the Deep South, there are enough differences for me to conclude that it's definitely a SOUTHERN culture, but not a Deep South culture. Outside this forum, it would seem that most sources agree with me.
Just my observations. I don't really care one way or the other. I think the debate is more amusing than anything else.
I know you're "SOOO" above it all and that you're only here sh*ts and giggles...I think we all are...BUT alot of the links you're spamming as support for your own opinion contradict it. And you seem to be cherry picking your qualifiers...you'll say something along the lines of "Texas doesnt have boiled peanuts" but completely neglect the fact that it does have tons of fried catfish joints along with other deep south states. Or you'll say something like the deep south has these wildly different accents from East Texas, but then omit the fact that the south Louisiana accent is as distant as it gets from typical southern accents. Then, you cite wikipedia as one of the sources defining the south, yet completely ignore the fact that it not only explicitly includes East Texas in its definition of the deep south; but states that at one point, neither east texas NOR your birthplace were included in the definition.
I know were all just kicking the sheet around, but these are some of the reasons that spamming links and throwing them forth as though they are support for one's opinion is not appreciated as much as it maybe should be here. Half of them contradict your own qualifiers for defining the south, and the other half are being cited out of context, it seems to me...but as you say, carry on.
What part of "I was born in New Orleans" did I miss? That was supposed to be one of the things that distinguished you as one of the foremost authorities on all things Deep South. So you believe me too: I too, can tell the difference between deep south accents, and I have lived in most of the places you have and visited all the rest extensively -- plus Mississippi. There is not singular deep south accent and for you to act as though New Orleans' accent wouldnt automatically exclude it from being any deep south variant when one of your main reasons for excluding East Texas from a deep south categorization was its atypical deep south accent, demolishes your credibility in my opinion.
Oh my, this is a such a ridiculous oversimplification of my posts on this thread.
I hesitate to even waste my time responding to it, but it's so weird that it's just entertaining enough for me, on a quiet night. So...here we go! Yee haw!
First of all, I've never claimed to be, as you put it so...grandiosely..."one of the foremost authorities on all things Deep South." What I HAVE said is that considering that I've spent most of my life in the South, and lived in every southern state except for Mississippi and Florida (which hardly even counts as a Southern state ) I am very familiar with the wide range of Southern accents - and southern culture in general. I also realize and recognize that there are subtle differences between "southern" and "Deep South" cultures, but apparently we're not even going to get to that part of the discussion, because for some reason you're completely hung up with this New Orleans thing.
But, before we go further, can I just say that I am SO GLAD that you also can tell the difference between southern accents! What an accomplishment we've both mastered!
Now, I never said that there is a "singular Deep South accent," nor did I claim or even infer - or for that matter, ever IMAGINE that a "New Orleans' accent wouldnt automatically exclude it from being any deep south variant when one of my main reasons for excluding East Texas from a deep south categorization was its atypical deep south accent." (By the way, if you'd ever tried to pass off that tortured sentence in an English class, it would have earned you a red mark on your paper! Wow!)
So, can you please explain what the heck you are even trying to say about a New Orleans accent in that statement? And how are you tying my birthplace of New Orleans to all this stuff about southern accents?
You have demolished your credibility in my opinion. OUCH, didn't that just cut to the bone?
Oh, it didn't? Well, bless your heart, that's great.
By the way, GEAUX, SAINTS! And Cowboys, too! Ready for some FOOTBALL!!!
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 07-05-2012 at 10:04 PM..
I know you're "SOOO" above it all and that you're only here sh*ts and giggles...I think we all are...BUT alot of the links you're spamming as support for your own opinion contradict it. And you seem to be cherry picking your qualifiers...you'll say something along the lines of "Texas doesnt have boiled peanuts" but completely neglect the fact that it does have tons of fried catfish joints along with other deep south states. Or you'll say something like the deep south has these wildly different accents from East Texas, but then omit the fact that the south Louisiana accent is as distant as it gets from typical southern accents. Then, you cite wikipedia as one of the sources defining the south, yet completely ignore the fact that it not only explicitly includes East Texas in its definition of the deep south; but states that at one point, neither east texas NOR your birthplace were included in the definition.
I know were all just kicking the sheet around, but these are some of the reasons that spamming links and throwing them forth as though they are support for one's opinion is not appreciated as much as it maybe should be here. Half of them contradict your own qualifiers for defining the south, and the other half are being cited out of context, it seems to me...but as you say, carry on.
Tsk tsk...I don't think I care much for your tone. I wish you'd picked up a few southern manners in all your time in the South.
Now - let me repeat myself to you:
This is simply my opinion. What you're giving is simply YOUR opinion. You claim that my "sources" contradict each other. Now, haven't I said several times that there are many different opinions on this very topic - both on this forum and even among professionals such as historians and sociologists?
Which is why you can insult and resort to sarcasm and cuss and rant and rave all you want - but your opinion on this topic is simply that - your opinion. It's not an irrefutable fact, it's not scientifically proven, it's not even a matter of much importance, it's just your opinion.
And guess what - you can say the same about my opinion.
I just wish you'd say it with a bit more of that famous Deep South courtesy. Didn't yore mama teach you better than this?
I read the Wiki article - even quoted from it. But is that really all you've got, other than your opinion? I mean, that's one source - and it's Wiki. Come on, man!
Sorry, but along with my opinion, I've given many, many more sources to support that opinion.
Yet none that make any real sense, though:
1) You claim East Texas is 16% black, and beneath it you post a link that only presents data of half the region. Not only was this inept and misleading, but it was inconsequential to the topic at hand, as it can pretty much be proven that the Black Belt has no present correlation with the Deep South (the former stretches all the way into Maryland),
2) You post cut-and-dry dictionary definitions as if they are encyclopedic sources,
3) and then you post maps which drew data from the entire state of Texas, which obviously skews the results out of East Texas' favor. In fact, only Figures 20 & 24 were East Texas specific, but not even they corresponded with your own definition of the Deep South.
So you see, your "sources" aren't worth a rusty nickel here.
As for mine, Wikipedia isn't a real source, but more like a middle-man. You really shouldn't just read those articles without visiting the references.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
Southern, absolutely. DEEP SOUTH? Questionable.
So now are you looking to pick a debate with any passing poster who disagrees with you?
Well, we're going around and around in circles, so it was probably best that we just left this at "agree to disagree".
I can assure you that I'm still "humorous" about the whole thing. After all, my side of the argument is winning the poll. My fellow Texans know what the Deep South is.
So now are you looking to pick a debate with any passing poster who disagrees with you?
Well, we're going around and around in circles, so it was probably best that we just left this at "agree to disagree".
I can assure you that I'm still "humorous" about the whole thing. After all, my side of the argument is winning the poll. My fellow Texans know what the Deep South is.
Nairobi, I've read the entire thread from start to finish. You've been spoiling for a fight from page one, with anyone who posted any opinion you didn't share.
Pot, meet kettle.
By the way, I wasn't aware that this poll was some sort of contest. Silly me, I just thought it was an opinion poll!
First of all, I've never claimed to be, as you put it so...grandiosely..."one of the foremost authorities on all things Deep South." What I HAVE said is that considering that I've spent most of my life in the South, and lived in every southern state except for Mississippi and Florida (which hardly even counts as a Southern state ) I am very familiar with the wide range of Southern accents - and southern culture in general. I also realize and recognize that there are subtle differences between "southern" and "Deep South" cultures, but apparently we're not even going to get to that part of the discussion, because for some reason you're completely hung up with this New Orleans thing.
But, before we go further, can I just say that I am SO GLAD that you also can tell the difference between southern accents! What an accomplishment we've both mastered!
Shoot, it wasnt me who announced to the world that I had lived in the south for "over 35 years!". And declared that "East Texas has more of a 'rounded' accent'"...trying to sound like some linguistics expert...lol. FOH.
Quote:
Now, I never said that there is a "singular Deep South accent," nor did I claim or even infer - or for that matter, ever IMAGINE that a "New Orleans' accent wouldnt automatically exclude it from being any deep south variant when one of my main reasons for excluding East Texas from a deep south categorization was its atypical deep south accent." (By the way, if you'd ever tried to pass off that tortured sentence in an English class, it would have earned you a red mark on your paper! Wow!)
And you say this as you cant even punctuate your contractions right...lol.... What happened? I thought you were just here for sh*ts and giggles anywho-- you know? toying with us all and whatnot...now you've suddenly turned into a grammar nazi as you nonchalantly submit your 98th post about a subject you could careless about...you're all over the place tonight kathy. But its all in good clean fun.
Quote:
So, can you please explain what the heck you are even trying to say about a New Orleans accent in that statement? And how are you tying my birthplace of New Orleans to all this stuff about southern accents?
You have demolished your credibility in my opinion. OUCH, didn't that just cut to the bone?
Oh, it didn't? Well, bless your heart, that's great.
Thanks for the blessing darlin....and while you're busy blessing my heart feel free to ask to be blessed with the gift of consistency so that your opinion actually isnt completely contradictory...Pray hard.
j/k Im just joshin -- so dont take offense to that.
But seriously, you basically have little credibility so far and really no stance at all..Like your travels, you're all over the place. And in similar form your logic is too; even backward at times. One of your main premises for excluding East Texas from the Deep South was that they dont have deep south accents. Meanwhile, New Orleans has accents that are hardly what anyone could consider representative of the deep south. And when someone mentioned that natives of New Orleans dont even consider themselves southern, you respond in shock with "Wow!...." as if thats news to you -- when New Orleans is as atypical as it gets and neither East Texas nor South Louisiana were never historically considered a part of the Deep South to begin with. Then you drag up percentages of black populations in the deep south when even the history of New Orleans' black population isnt the same as the rest of the blacks found across the south. From what I can tell, your position is essentially: "Ill agree with whatever definition doesnt include East Texas in the Deep South..even if it includes Maine" -- You have no consistent definition of the deep south outside of boiled peanuts. And some of your own links dont even align with your own definition of the deep south. A couple of them included North Carolina, and you yourself dont even include Tennessee, so how can North Carolina possibly be in the deep south? and here you are trying to act like those are supposed to represent supportive evidence.. man, please....
I dont begrudge you your opinion, I just think its convoluted and misguided, just as Im sure you think mine is. No hard feelings, just my casual observation as a spectator here.
Btw thanks again for the blessing, but sarcasm is the lowest form of wit so it will be interesting to see how you cut to the bone with no knife...
Tsk tsk...I don't think I care much for your tone. I wish you'd picked up a few southern manners in all your time in the South.
Now - let me repeat myself to you:
This is simply my opinion. What you're giving is simply YOUR opinion. You claim that my "sources" contradict each other. Now, haven't I said several times that there are many different opinions on this very topic - both on this forum and even among professionals such as historians and sociologists?
Which is why you can insult and resort to sarcasm and cuss and rant and rave all you want - but your opinion on this topic is simply that - your opinion. It's not an irrefutable fact, it's not scientifically proven, it's not even a matter of much importance, it's just your opinion.
And guess what - you can say the same about my opinion.
I just wish you'd say it with a bit more of that famous Deep South courtesy. Didn't yore mama teach you better than this?
"Dontchu tawk abaat mah mama!!"...lol...Is that how you want me to say it...with some goofy deep south drawl?...
I wasnt really trying to insult you...I hope I didnt offend you because that wasnt the intent...like you said, I was just giving my opinion, while trying to bring a little levity to the discussion...Ill ease up on some of the tough tawk though...lol <who knew deep southerners were so "sissatiiive"?>
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) I am very familiar with the wide range of Southern accents - and southern culture in general. I also realize and recognize that there are subtle differences between "southern" and "Deep South" cultures, but apparently we're not even going to get to that part of the discussion, because for some reason you're completely hung up with this New Orleans thing.
Not only was this inept and misleading, but it was inconsequential to the topic at hand, as it can pretty much be proven that the Black Belt has no present correlation with the Deep South (the former stretches all the way into Maryland),
