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Deep East Texas (Jasper, Kirbyville, et al....) was close enough to "Deep South" Jackson/Brandon, MS to make me glad to leave and never, ever, ever go back! As a native West Texan (Trans-Pecos West Texas), this desert rat had a bad case of culture shock in both places!
The people were nice--they weren't the problem. But the weather, food and nearly everything else was!
Those same people probably get to West Texas and go, "OMG, how can anybody live here in this barren desert?"
LOL! To each his/her own!
Hey, your post made me think of something else.
Apparently you consider "Deep East Texas" to differ culturally from "East Texas." I tend to agree with you on that. Though the cultural differences are slight - and might not even be noticed by a casual observer, or someone unfamiliar with the intimacies of BOTH cultures, the differences are there.
That's how I feel about the differences between the Deep South and East Texas. They may be slight - but they are there. If others can't or won't see them, I can't help that.
It's not that big a deal to me. I really like East Texas and feel very at home here. But when I first moved here from "the Deep South," I definitely felt some culture shock, starting with the morning Livestock Report (what the heck!), to my bemusement at so many men who actually wore Wranglers, cowboy boots and cowboy hats, along with "Lone Star belt buckles" (thanks, Willie!) - I mean wore them, not as a costume but as "real clothes." Now - this was twenty years ago, keep in mind, but I PROMISE YOU that twenty years ago, if some guy walked into any restaurant more than 10 miles off I-20 in the Deep South, wearing cowboy boots and a cowboy hat, and a big belt buckle, it would have been a pretty unusual sight.
Texas has the highest number of pick up trucks PER CAPITA.
Cavenders has a bunch of stores - but not a single one in a Deep South state - except for Bossier City, Louisiana, and like my daddy says, everyone in Shreveport and Bossier thinks they're really Texans anyway.
Please don't tell me that plenty of people you know in the Deep South do wear cowboy hats and boots (and other cowboy bling) and drive a pickup truck - I know they do. But around here in East Texas, this is so normal and typical that it doesn't even register when you see a guy dressed like that. In most parts of the Deep South, it is not typical attire, though it's not considered BIZARRE, like it might be in the Northeast. Trucks are common, but not to the extent they are here in East Texas.
We can't ignore the influence of African Americans on Deep South culture. That's one thing I noticed IMMEDIATELY when I moved to East Texas - there are markedly fewer African Americans - I mean, as soon as you cross the Louisiana state line, the ratio starts to drop drastically. This does make a difference - in food, music, religion, in the workplace, education, etc. You name it.
African American population:
Houston: 24%
Lufkin: 27%
Tyler: 27%
Corpus Christi: 5%
Longview: 23%
Marshall: 38% (note that it's the closest on the list to the state line of Louisiana)
Livingston - 18%
Nacogdoches - 25%
Kilgore - 12%
The term "Deep South" was coined in the postbellum era and was used as another term for the Lower South and/or the Cotton South. By that definition alone, East Texas is a part of it. FACT. Everything else is arguable, but as I'm sure you realize, you are in the minority here.
I used to live in Georgia, frequented South Carolina while there, and Louisiana has practically been a second home since I was a child. I can't recall "boiled peanut stands every few miles" in either of these locations and the preparation of grits was as varied as anywhere else. Cattle are a bigger deal in Texas ag (about 48%). Big whoop. You hardly have any basis for claiming these things are the litmus test.
Again, the flaw in your argument is in trying to make the Deep South this monolithic region, but like I said, your opinion is respected.
I hope you realize that my post was a bit tongue in cheek.
The OP's question was "Is East Texas CULTURALLY a part of the Deep South?" That's a question that really can't be answered with historical facts and figures. It's more subjective. You may think it is, because you can't see as many differences as I can. I see LOTS of differences cumulatively, apparently more than you do. That doesn't mean I don't love Texas (I do) or appreciate Texas' Southern heritage (which I do) - it just means that TO ME, the CULTURAL differences between East Texas and the Deep South are significant and real. You don't feel that way. It's OK. Like you said, you respect my point of view, and I respect yours. We don't have to agree, and I am pretty sure neither of us will convince the other to agree on this point.
Not sure where you've lived most of your life, but I've lived in Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina for at least 15 years of my life. I've lived in East Texas for twenty years. Now - this doesn't make me an expert on demographics, but it does mean that I am VERY familiar with both cultures - and can easily spot the differences, whether others can or not.
You don't see the differences? I guess that's good. Maybe - who knows? It's really not that important. I DO see the differences. I don't think of that as "good" or "bad" or think that Deep South culture is superior to East Texas culture, or vice versa. I like them both and appreciate them both.
Apparently you consider "Deep East Texas" to differ culturally from "East Texas." I tend to agree with you on that. Though the cultural differences are slight - and might not even be noticed by a casual observer, or someone unfamiliar with the intimacies of BOTH cultures, the differences are there.
That's how I feel about the differences between the Deep South and East Texas. They may be slight - but they are there. If others can't or won't see them, I can't help that.
It's not that big a deal to me. I really like East Texas and feel very at home here. But when I first moved here from "the Deep South," I definitely felt some culture shock, starting with the morning Livestock Report (what the heck!), to my bemusement at so many men who actually wore Wranglers, cowboy boots and cowboy hats, along with "Lone Star belt buckles" (thanks, Willie!) - I mean wore them, not as a costume but as "real clothes." Now - this was twenty years ago, keep in mind, but I PROMISE YOU that twenty years ago, if some guy walked into any restaurant more than 10 miles off I-20 in the Deep South, wearing cowboy boots and a cowboy hat, and a big belt buckle, it would have been a pretty unusual sight.
Texas has the highest number of pick up trucks PER CAPITA.
Cavenders has a bunch of stores - but not a single one in a Deep South state - except for Bossier City, Louisiana, and like my daddy says, everyone in Shreveport and Bossier thinks they're really Texans anyway.
Please don't tell me that plenty of people you know in the Deep South do wear cowboy hats and boots (and other cowboy bling) and drive a pickup truck - I know they do. But around here in East Texas, this is so normal and typical that it doesn't even register when you see a guy dressed like that. In most parts of the Deep South, it is not typical attire, though it's not considered BIZARRE, like it might be in the Northeast. Trucks are common, but not to the extent they are here in East Texas.
We can't ignore the influence of African Americans on Deep South culture. That's one thing I noticed IMMEDIATELY when I moved to East Texas - there are markedly fewer African Americans - I mean, as soon as you cross the Louisiana state line, the ratio starts to drop drastically. This does make a difference - in food, music, religion, in the workplace, education, etc. You name it.
African American population:
Houston: 24%
Lufkin: 27%
Tyler: 27%
Corpus Christi: 5%
Longview: 23%
Marshall: 38% (note that it's the closest on the list to the state line of Louisiana)
Livingston - 18%
Nacogdoches - 25%
Kilgore - 12%
Apparently you consider "Deep East Texas" to differ culturally from "East Texas." I tend to agree with you on that. Though the cultural differences are slight - and might not even be noticed by a casual observer, or someone unfamiliar with the intimacies of BOTH cultures, the differences are there.
That's how I feel about the differences between the Deep South and East Texas. They may be slight - but they are there. If others can't or won't see them, I can't help that.
It's not that big a deal to me. I really like East Texas and feel very at home here. But when I first moved here from "the Deep South," I definitely felt some culture shock, starting with the morning Livestock Report (what the heck!), to my bemusement at so many men who actually wore Wranglers, cowboy boots and cowboy hats, along with "Lone Star belt buckles" (thanks, Willie!) - I mean wore them, not as a costume but as "real clothes." Now - this was twenty years ago, keep in mind, but I PROMISE YOU that twenty years ago, if some guy walked into any restaurant more than 10 miles off I-20 in the Deep South, wearing cowboy boots and a cowboy hat, and a big belt buckle, it would have been a pretty unusual sight.
Texas has the highest number of pick up trucks PER CAPITA.
Cavenders has a bunch of stores - but not a single one in a Deep South state - except for Bossier City, Louisiana, and like my daddy says, everyone in Shreveport and Bossier thinks they're really Texans anyway.
Please don't tell me that plenty of people you know in the Deep South do wear cowboy hats and boots (and other cowboy bling) and drive a pickup truck - I know they do. But around here in East Texas, this is so normal and typical that it doesn't even register when you see a guy dressed like that. In most parts of the Deep South, it is not typical attire, though it's not considered BIZARRE, like it might be in the Northeast. Trucks are common, but not to the extent they are here in East Texas.
We can't ignore the influence of African Americans on Deep South culture. That's one thing I noticed IMMEDIATELY when I moved to East Texas - there are markedly fewer African Americans - I mean, as soon as you cross the Louisiana state line, the ratio starts to drop drastically. This does make a difference - in food, music, religion, in the workplace, education, etc. You name it.
[b]African American population:
Houston: 24%
Lufkin: 27%
Tyler: 27%
Corpus Christi: 5%
Longview: 23%
Marshall: 38% (note that it's the closest on the list to the state line of Louisiana)
Livingston - 18%
Nacogdoches - 25%
Kilgore - 12%
This is so flawed it isn't even funny. I can cherry pick too:
San Augustine, TX - 57.94% Black
Beaumont, TX - 47.3 %
Port Arthur, TX - 43.7%
Orange, TX - 35.36%
La Marque - 34%
Marshall - 38%
Texarkana - 37%
Etc...
That link you posted is data of Upper East Texas, and not the entire region.
Texas still has one of the largest black populations in the nation, with most being concentrated in the eastern half of the state. Around +/- one million blacks live in the Houston and Dallas areas each. At one point, half of Houston's population was black. The smaller percentages are due to expanding city limits that swallow whiter suburbs, as well as growing immigrant populations. There are still large neighborhoods with overwhelmingly black inhabitants. Early forms of black culture and music like the blues and boogie woogie have some of their roots in eastern Texas. However, East Texas is on the edge of the Black Belt (which is NOT synonymous with the Deep South) so the level of blacks will be lower than further east.
I'd wish you'd stop pretending to be more informed on what the Deep South is than I am. It's quite insulting. If you're an "expert" then so am I.
I hope you realize that my post was a bit tongue in cheek.
The OP's question was "Is East Texas CULTURALLY a part of the Deep South?" That's a question that really can't be answered with historical facts and figures. It's more subjective. You may think it is, because you can't see as many differences as I can. I see LOTS of differences cumulatively, apparently more than you do. That doesn't mean I don't love Texas (I do) or appreciate Texas' Southern heritage (which I do) - it just means that TO ME, the CULTURAL differences between East Texas and the Deep South are significant and real. You don't feel that way. It's OK. Like you said, you respect my point of view, and I respect yours. We don't have to agree, and I am pretty sure neither of us will convince the other to agree on this point.
Not sure where you've lived most of your life, but I've lived in Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina for at least 15 years of my life. I've lived in East Texas for twenty years. Now - this doesn't make me an expert on demographics, but it does mean that I am VERY familiar with both cultures - and can easily spot the differences, whether others can or not.
You don't see the differences? I guess that's good. Maybe - who knows? It's really not that important. I DO see the differences. I don't think of that as "good" or "bad" or think that Deep South culture is superior to East Texas culture, or vice versa. I like them both and appreciate them both.
Please do not patronize me. I never said there weren't differences. I'm saying that you're not the authority to decide whether or not these things make a place the Deep South.
This is so flawed it isn't even funny. I can cherry pick too:
San Augustine, TX - 57.94% Black
Beaumont, TX - 47.3 %
Port Arthur, TX - 43.7%
Orange, TX - 35.36%
La Marque - 34%
Marshall - 38%
Texarkana - 37%
Etc...
That link you posted is data of Upper East Texas, and not the entire region.
Texas still has one of the largest black populations in the nation, with most being concentrated in the eastern half of the state. Around +/- one million blacks live in the Houston and Dallas areas. At one point, half of Houston's population was black. The smaller percentages are due to expanding city limits that swallow whiter suburbs, as well as growing immigrant populations. There are still large neighborhoods with overwhelmingly black inhabitants. Early forms of black culture and music like the blues and boogie woogie have some of their roots in eastern Texas. However, East Texas is on the edge of the Black Belt, which is NOT synonymous with the Deep South, so the level of blacks will be lower than further east.
I'd wish you'd stop pretending to be more informed on what the Deep South is than I am. It's quite insulting. If you're an "expert" then so am I.
I think you're too easily insulted.
Anyway, I didn't cherry pick anything - I just chose the first cities that came to my mind. And the FACT is that Upper East Texas (is that sort of like "the South" vs "the Deep South?") is only 15 percent African American, vs the other Southern states I listed which were in the 30% and up range (except for SC, which was still much higher than East Texas.)
Texas as a whole is only 11 percent African American, so I'm not sure where you get the notion that it has one of the largest African American populations in the US - sheer numbers perhaps, but not percentages - so I'd say your assertion is, errrr, flawed (ironic, huh?). The percentage of African Americans in the US is actually higher than the state of Texas at 12.6%. Texas has a lower than average African American population in other words. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...kdown_by_state
Do you have any source for stats for "Deep East Texas?" I couldn't find any. (I notated that the stats I posted were for upper East Texas, so no need for you to point that out to me, by the way - not that I'm insulted! I'm pretty tough skinned.)
Please do not patronize me. I never said there weren't differences. I'm saying that you're not the authority to decide whether or not these things make a place the Deep South.
I'm not patronizing you. I do, however, find your umbrage sort of funny. I would prefer that you develop a sense of humor but it's ok if you don't.
Thanks for the thoughtful answer; I appreciate it. I see what you mean.
You are very welcome. This is just my opinion, but it is an informed one! By the way, I really appreciate the tone of your posts, and your insight and opinions. Thanks so much for realizing that this topic really isn't "personal."
Anyway, I didn't cherry pick anything - I just chose the first cities that came to my mind. And the FACT is that Upper East Texas (is that sort of like "the South" vs "the Deep South?") is only 15 percent African American, vs the other Southern states I listed which were in the 30% and up range (except for SC, which was still much higher than East Texas.)
Upper East Texas may be the area that you're the most familiar with, but we're talking about the entirety of East Texas. If you counted all of the counties, the percentages would likely exceed the 20% range. Comparing one half an area to entire states is (ahem) flawed.
Quote:
Texas as a whole is only 11 percent African American, so I'm not sure where you get the notion that it has one of the largest African American populations in the US - sheer numbers perhaps, but not percentages - so I'd say your assertion is, errrr, flawed (ironic, huh?). The percentage of African Americans in the US is actually higher than the state of Texas at 12.6%. Texas has a lower than average African American population in other words. Demographics of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Do you have any source for stats for "Deep East Texas?" I couldn't find any. (I notated that the stats I posted were for upper East Texas, so no need for you to point that out to me, by the way - not that I'm insulted! I'm pretty tough skinned.)
Peace!
You seem smart, so I'm sure you're aware of how huge Texas is. There are huge portions of the state where there are seemingly no blacks, but that's irrelevant. The non-blackness of western Texas has nothing to do with the blackness of East Texas. Culturally, they're worlds apart either way.
I'm not patronizing you. I do, however, find your umbrage sort of funny. I would prefer that you develop a sense of humor but it's ok if you don't.
You are being patronizing. Patting me on the head, suggesting how it's cute and admirable that I'd want to be included in what you call the Deep South, all while ignoring facts and clinging to the ones that you feel support your argument.
Take a look at the poll. But I suppose EVERYONE else is simply misinformed, right?
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