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Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 37,160,747 times
Reputation: 40641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp775
That's what the Boston Red Sox said in 1999, too. Nearly twenty years later, Fenway is not only doing all right, they want to build little minor league replicas everywhere!
It isn't though. It's small, its outdated, it has a very low capacity even with the investments made and loads of people won't go to it because of that. Sure, there are people that love it, and even come to visit it, but it's not really doing ok in the grand scheme.
As I have noted before, the number of bookings for each facility are not likely to be all that different. While the DDC might get more non sporting events, McCoy Stadium actually hosts many more nearly guaranteed (weather permitting) sporting events. Keep in mind a new downtown baseball stadium would likely also try to attract other uses.
PawSox Regular Season Home Games:
72
Providence Bruins Regular Season Home Games:
38
PC Friars 2017-18 Regular Season Home games:
18
Regular Season Games for Venue Main Tenants
McCoy Stadium Games: 72
DDC Games: 56
Note: The DDC Center currently has few bookings for the summer months when the main sports tenants have no use of the facility. There are only seven bookings of the venue for the four month span of June through September:
JUNE: CVS Golf Charity June 21-22 (2)
JULY: North East Christian Conference July 20-22 (3)
AUGUST: Banda MS De Sergio Lizaragga Concert August 4 (1)
SEPTEMBER: Thomas Rhett Concert September 20 (1)
DDC Calendar: http://www.dunkindonutscenter.com/as...aa1017e2ac.pdf
The Civic Center argument for a new stadium assumes the Civic Center was a good deal in the first place. Based on my own observations being downtown before and after an event, it seems to have a similar problem that people argue that McCoy has: lots if people driving in for the event and driving out after. Also, a lack of events would seem to be another argument against public financing of another entertainment venue, except I assume the Civic Center used to have more going on before the state built a convention center next door to poach events. The Civic Center has a concert seating capacity of 14,000, not dissimilar from an 11,000 +/- seat stadium - if the number of concerts at a new PawSox stadium is significantly greater than the concerts currently at McCoy, then the new stadium is further poaching events from the Civic Center.
It isn't though. It's small, its outdated, it has a very low capacity even with the investments made and loads of people won't go to it because of that. Sure, there are people that love it, and even come to visit it, but it's not really doing ok in the grand scheme.
Fenway is averaging 92 percent capacity for the season, and I'm venturing to guess most people don't go because they can't afford it. I can't pay Fenway prices. Yes, it might be higher in overall attendance with greater capacity (it's #22 out of 30 in the majors), but I'll point out again, new stadium is not the formula for success. The oldest of the "non-quirky" ballparks, 1962 Chavez Ravine, is #1.
Location: Earth, a nice neighborhood in the Milky Way
3,866 posts, read 2,768,947 times
Reputation: 1641
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742
If you see it as just money being taken from taxpayers, and that is inherently a negative to be minimized, then you're the one lacking understanding. You also aren't reading what I'm actually writing, but what you want to read.
I read what you wrote. It's wrong.
Do I think government should not subsidize professional sports teams? Yes. 100% yes.
You seem to want it both ways. On the one hand, you say the state will be searching for that lost revenue no matter whether the team leaves or we build them a ballpark, and on the other you taxes may or may not go up if they stay, even though the state no longer sees the $2M if we finance a stadium.
Sheesh!
No, I don't want it both ways. This was also clearly explained in post 349. "May or may not" is dependent on whether or not the new ballpark and nearby businesses generate additional tax revenue (above the expected $2+ million) for the state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ormari
McCoy is a good venue. They should stay there, but if they need a new stadium, then I say bye bye.
From what I understand, McCoy is in need of renovations that would add up to about $68 million. It's not worth it (mainly due to the location).
Location: Earth, a nice neighborhood in the Milky Way
3,866 posts, read 2,768,947 times
Reputation: 1641
Quote:
Originally Posted by redplum33
No, I don't want it both ways. This was also clearly explained in post 349. "May or may not" is dependent on whether or not the new ballpark and nearby businesses generate additional tax revenue (above the expected $2+ million) for the state.
Again, that's not the way it's going to work.
Nearby "new tax revenue" will not go to the state either, under the Tax Increment Financing district proposal, or "Super TIF" District. State taxes from nearby new development go to fund the ball park, as do property taxes. And it will take many years to generate any revenue. Read about the TIF here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by redplum33
From what I understand, McCoy is in need of renovations that would add up to about $68 million. It's not worth it (mainly due to the location).
There's no way that number is legit. Those numbers are likely inflated to justify a new park.
That's what the Boston Red Sox said in 1999, too. Nearly twenty years later, Fenway is not only doing all right, they want to build little minor league replicas everywhere!
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742
It isn't though. It's small, its outdated, it has a very low capacity even with the investments made and loads of people won't go to it because of that. Sure, there are people that love it, and even come to visit it, but it's not really doing ok in the grand scheme.
This is incorrect. The size/intimacy is one of the reasons it's so successful.
The state gets over $2 million a year in taxes from the Pawsox.
If the Pawsox leave RI, the state gets nothing. That's essentially a $2+ million loss per year for the state, but the state isn't going to take a loss. How do you think they will make up for that $2+ million per year that they are accustomed to receiving? It shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.
If the Pawsox stay in RI and the Apex plan goes forward, the state (along with Pawtucket) puts up $38 million and continues to receive $2+ million a year in taxes. The plan includes a guarantee that the Pawsox will remain in Pawtucket until at least 2050.
So let's do the math...
The State and City kick in a total of $38 million, plus $14 million debt service, for a total of $52 million. At $2 million a year, that's 26 years before the break even point on the public investment - by which point it will be an old stadium and already several years past the next threat of more $$$ or we move to Worcester.
From what I understand, McCoy is in need of renovations that would add up to about $68 million.
Based on a $100,000 "independent" feasibility study paid for by the State of Rhode Island, City of Pawtucket, and the PawSox, all parties interested in painting staying at McCoy as infeasible. And the study was conducted by Pendulum, an architecture firm that designs new stadiums!
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