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Gotta side track here and give my two cents on the Pledge of Allegiance:
Should every child be required to learn it at some point in school? Yes.
Should it be required that the students stand up and repeat it on command? Absolutely not. The very reason we should all be proud to be an American is the very reason we each have the right to refuse to bow down to such nationalistic rituals.
And NO, there should NOT be mandated prayer in schools, ever. Should any school district mandate that a "moment of thought" be instituted- fine- as long as it is called just that, and lasts no longer than a literal 60 second "moment". And as long as it falls within the parameters of individual "thought" only, meaning no visible/physical rituals permitted. Leave crosses, prayer rugs, etc. at home, or at church, where it belongs, not in school!
Looks like I'm in the minority as I support school prayer... but I would restrict it to a positive affirmation like, "Thank you Father for your love." That shouldn't take any longer than 5 seconds and if everyone said it, including the teachers, etc.... who knows, maybe there would no longer be a need for a police presence on school campuses.
Looks like I'm in the minority as I support school prayer... but I would restrict it to a positive affirmation like, "Thank you Father for your love." That shouldn't take any longer than 5 seconds and if everyone said it, including the teachers, etc.... who knows, maybe there would no longer be a need for a police presence on school campuses.
Would you support "Thank you mother for your love"?, or "Thank you Allah for your love"?
Maybe thanking Vishnu, or nature, or Ba'al?
My wife is a teacher, and an atheist. Should she be required to say such a thing?
As for your police presence wish, I could say the opposite. Maybe saying a school prayer would result in requiring more police on campus. After all, I have just as much evidence behind my thought as you do yours. (In regards to police presence resulting from prayer.)
Would you support "Thank you mother for your love"?, or "Thank you Allah for your love"?
Maybe thanking Vishnu, or nature, or Ba'al?
My wife is a teacher, and an atheist. Should she be required to say such a thing?
As for your police presence wish, I could say the opposite. Maybe saying a school prayer would result in requiring more police on campus. After all, I have just as much evidence behind my thought as you do yours. (In regards to police presence resulting from prayer.)
I neglected to say that it doesn't need to be said aloud. If our Heavenly Father's children loved Him as much as He loves them, imagine what a wonderful world we would have? Is this small thing, just too much to ask? Many people want peace on earth and they're not getting it... and some wonder why. Maybe it's because of their self-centered attitudes and their need to be always right. Maybe if people would appreciate that there is a higher being who can help all of us... but we must think higher thoughts in order for this to occur. Five seconds of a higher thought of love to our Creator is miniscule in the grand scheme of things, but the positive cumulative effect on our society would be enormous.
Wouldn't it be nice if children were respectful of each other, their parents and teachers? Wouldn't it be nice if children never had a thought about bringing a weapon to school, killing someone or committing suicide? Wouldn't it be nice if there was no such thing as drugs in a classroom?
You can have any belief you want and think anything you wish... however, you do have a Heavenly Father... whether you want to believe it or not. The fact that He loves you in spite of your beliefs says volumes about Him.
Gotta side track here and give my two cents on the Pledge of Allegiance:
Should every child be required to learn it at some point in school? Yes.
Should it be required that the students stand up and repeat it on command? Absolutely not. The very reason we should all be proud to be an American is the very reason we each have the right to refuse to bow down to such nationalistic rituals.
Agreed. The feeling I have about nationalism is like what many atheists may feel on religion. I will respect that it is "the faith" for some people and I will not besmirch its "sacred" symbols, but I consider it to be the source of some of the most violent and pointless wars in history. If I had kids I would not want them pressured into some nationalistic ritual. Still it's so standard I guess I'd accept it but tell them when they got home "this is not what I believe and the only time I do it is at a memorial as a sign of respect for those in that semi-religion." (Said semi-religion being American nationalism)
And this is one where I certainly did not get my values from my parents, my siblings, my community, or any person I really know. It simply seemed the logical endpoint of believing in a universalizing faith and a "Kingdom not of this World." Still I do have a love for America, of a kind, in that it made me. Going by that I think it's more like the love to a grandparent than some form of reverence. My ideals have little or nothing to do with Washington or Jefferson. They come from Jesus, Francis of Assisi, Thomas A Kempis, and various non-Christian philosophers or writers too. If there is ever a conflict between the natural or eternal law and the laws of the US than the laws of US would be something to ignore as they would no longer be laws at all. (Like if the law required me to be sterilized due to my genetic disability or forced atheists to convert to Christianity or required abortion in certain circumstances or what have you) In my life I've never had to deal with such an incident.
I neglected to say that it doesn't need to be said aloud. If our Heavenly Father's children loved Him as much as He loves them, imagine what a wonderful world we would have? Is this small thing, just too much to ask? Many people want peace on earth and they're not getting it... and some wonder why. Maybe it's because of their self-centered attitudes and their need to be always right. Maybe if people would appreciate that there is a higher being who can help all of us... but we must think higher thoughts in order for this to occur. Five seconds of a higher thought of love to our Creator is miniscule in the grand scheme of things, but the positive cumulative effect on our society would be enormous.
That is EXACTLY why there should NOT be prayer in school. I mean no offense to your beliefs- they are yours, and I respect you for having them. But the fact that you place so much emphasis that others believe WHAT YOU DO, and as well wish for others to exhibit and PROVE those beliefs in a forced-prayer setting. Which is what you want, let's be honest here.
You mentioned "self-centered attitudes and their need to always be right". Well, with all due respect- you just did exactly what you condemned in the same breath. While I know you may not have realized it, you did. You judged others- unknowingly or not, and irregardless of whether or not your intentions were good. And when you suggest that others may be falling short in your eyes because they are not "appreciating that there is a higher being", as you say, have you ever stopped to think that, by your saying so, you are alienating those who do NOT agree, and thus creating more problems? Now here, with adults- no. We can (or should) think for ourselves. But children- they are impressionable, and when you say things like that around children please, remember that they might not believe what you do, and should that be the case you might hurt their feelings and as well might make them feel less valued, or even abnormal or weird if they hear that they "should" feel that way to be a good member of society, or that they "need" to love god as much as "he" loves them in order for the world to run right. It's all about appropriate- go ahead and raise your own children that way if you like, nobody can stop you. But we Americans, as a free republic, have to at least give children of our society a fighting chance against the trappings of organized religion and, at least within the forum of state education, a chance to find their own source of spirituality without any fear of retribution or condemnation from anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009
Wouldn't it be nice if children were respectful of each other, their parents and teachers? Wouldn't it be nice if children never had a thought about bringing a weapon to school, killing someone or committing suicide? Wouldn't it be nice if there was no such thing as drugs in a classroom?
Of course that would be nice. But all we can hope is that parents teach their children as best they can, and lead by example to live and let live in society, and to love and accept others, and not judge them. That comes from HOME. Once children are at school, we have to hope they bring what they've been taught to the table, and learn and grow from experiences that occur with and among their peers. I do have to say, though, that it seems that lately many parents are lacking in the "good parenting" department which is why kids are such a mess these days, but that's a whole 'nother topic...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009
You can have any belief you want and think anything you wish... however, you do have a Heavenly Father... whether you want to believe it or not. The fact that He loves you in spite of your beliefs says volumes about Him.
Very generous sentiments and wishes, and I think you said what you did out of kindness. But what if I had said to you, that satan the dark lord loves you and is bidding for you. He is yours and within you whether you want to believe it or not. ? Now I know that sounds silly and extreme, and I swear I am not trying to cause trouble or stick your craw! I'm just trying to make a point that despite the good you see in the way you present your beliefs, and no matter the good YOU believe your words to have, it is unfair to impose with absolution and certainty your personal faith upon another. It's not your place, nor anyone else's to set the rules for other people's beliefs...
So until we humans can all allow spirituality and religion to remain personal, and not force our beliefs on each other, it is of UTMOST importance that we remain true to "separation of church and state". Which means, as I've said, a big NO to prayer in school because no matter how "nice" people think it would be, it would cause nothing but problems. Just read the headlines, or a history book. Organized religion has a way of causing problems everywhere it is allowed to invade...
Wouldn't it be nice if children were respectful of each other, their parents and teachers? Wouldn't it be nice if children never had a thought about bringing a weapon to school, killing someone or committing suicide? Wouldn't it be nice if there was no such thing as drugs in a classroom?
That would be nice... although I don't think this generation is as big of a mess as some people like to believe.
However, there are places that don't have nearly the social, societal and youth problems like we do here in the United States. Aside from the fact that these countries tend to be wholly more supportive of social welfare and programs that benefit youth and that the citizens of these countries have a much more collective than individualistic attitude than in the United States, they still have the freedoms (maybe even more freedom) that we enjoy here in the USA.
Denmark is a good example of this. Denmark also has one of the highest, if not the highest percentage of people who identify themselves as non-religious or as having no religious beliefs.
That is EXACTLY why there should NOT be prayer in school. I mean no offense to your beliefs- they are yours, and I respect you for having them. But the fact that you place so much emphasis that others believe WHAT YOU DO, and as well wish for others to exhibit and PROVE those beliefs in a forced-prayer setting. Which is what you want, let's be honest here.
So until we humans can all allow spirituality and religion to remain personal, and not force our beliefs on each other, it is of UTMOST importance that we remain true to "separation of church and state". Which means, as I've said, a big NO to prayer in school because no matter how "nice" people think it would be, it would cause nothing but problems. Just read the headlines, or a history book. Organized religion has a way of causing problems everywhere it is allowed to invade...
Thanks for your response. Please know that I am not involved, nor have I ever been involved, with any organized religion... and, further, I don't believe in Satan.
What I'm sharing here comes from our Heavenly Father and it's information that He wants His children to know... that you... that we... are all loved. This information shouldn't be in the least offensive and it should be taken in the spirit for which it is shared... that this is good news and something to celebrate. God bless.
Thanks for your response. Please know that I am not involved, nor have I ever been involved, with any organized religion... and, further, I don't believe in Satan.
What I'm sharing here comes from our Heavenly Father and it's information that He wants His children to know... that you... that we... are all loved. This information shouldn't be in the least offensive and it should be taken in the spirit for which it is shared... that this is good news and something to celebrate. God bless.
Whether or not you participate in any religion you sure seem to be espousing Christian Centric values. It is offensive to those who are aethists to be told that they are children of He/Him. Might be offensive to those who see God as genderless. Just cause it's non-offensive and valuable to you, doesn't mean everyone feels that way.
How do you know what your sharing comes from God? What if I don't consider your Heavenly Father my God? What if I call him Allah or Hashem. What if my prayers are only meaningful to me in Hebrew?
You are essentially deeming that your way to pray is the right one, which is a large part of the problem with having organized prayer in a public school
Whether or not you participate in any religion you sure seem to be espousing Christian Centric values. It is offensive to those who are aethists to be told that they are children of He/Him. Might be offensive to those who see God as genderless. Just cause it's non-offensive and valuable to you, doesn't mean everyone feels that way.
How do you know what your sharing comes from God? What if I don't consider your Heavenly Father my God? What if I call him Allah or Hashem. What if my prayers are only meaningful to me in Hebrew?
You are essentially deeming that your way to pray is the right one, which is a large part of the problem with having organized prayer in a public school
How sad that you feel that way. Actually, I suggested a very simple five second affirmation... you are calling it a prayer. If I was going to suggest a prayer, believe me it would be much longer and five seconds wouldn't be enough time.
I know that it comes from my Heavenly Father because I am very close to Him and I am receiving His Divine Love in my soul every day.
My Heavenly Father is the Father of all of us... whether there is a belief in Him or not... it's as simple and uncomplicated as that.
Who and What is God? 1 (http://tinyurl.com/yhkp9re - broken link)
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