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Right. Then it is all pointless. God does everything, Jesus wasted His time teaching us anything and there is no point whatsoever for God to have even created us . . . what a total waste. Your God is as purposeless as that of the atheists (Nature).
God knew that the people who loved Him would follow Him and would accept His gift of salvation. And He also knew those who did not love Him, would reject his gift of salvation. The only waste I see, are those who could have eternal life, yet reject it. And they reject the only person who has the ability to save them. And that is why Jesus asks the question. How shall they neglect so great a Salvation?
You don't seem to grasp that he was simultaneously God and man -- it was his human nature that was tempted by and overcame Satan in the desert, not his "divine" one. But it doesn't change the fact that also had a divine nature while he did it. Difficult to grasp with your rational mind? Yes. That is why the RCC teaches that the incarnation, like the trinity, is a "mystery."
You don't seem to realize that whenever I encounter a man-made interpretation and doctrine that tells me . . . "I know it doesn't make any sense, but it's a mystery . . ." I know I am dealing with nothing from God. The requirement to actually GROW to achieve God consciousness within a human brain is far more believable to me . . . than it already being present from the seed stage in some magical concatenation of human and divine. God is Consciousness and it is God's consciousness that defines and establishes the universe and all that is in it. We are HUMAN consciousness "machines." Jesus is the one HUMAN who ACHIEVED the perfect God consciousness thereby connecting our species "output" to God and becoming ONE with God.
Yes . . . Jesus had an advantage . . . but if He had ALREADY BEEN ONE with God there would be no point to any of it, IMO. We would have nothing to strive for in our own production of consciousness and could take no relevant lesson from His ACHIEVEMENT. So to suggest He had nothing to achieve and He was already God negates any purpose to His entire existence. That God could have done any of that is obvious and it is totally ridiculous to think it was anything important enough to try to teach us about.
I seem to understand a lot better now where you are coming from. No matter how deeply we disagree on these matters, it's important to actually understand the viewpoint of the other as accurately as possible so as to make mutual rejection of said viewpoint credible, at the very least.
1. You don't seem to realize that whenever I encounter a man-made interpretation and doctrine that tells me . . . "I know it doesn't make any sense, but it's a mystery . . ." I know I am dealing with nothing from God.
I didn't before because you never explained it explicitly to me, but I do now. I'm not psychic, you know.
2. The requirement to actually GROW to achieve God consciousness within a human brain is far more believable to me . . . than it already being present from the seed stage in some magical concatenation of human and divine. [/color]
OK, it seems pretty clear now that you reject the incarnation as it's commonly understood by orthodox Christians.
3. God is Consciousness and it is God's consciousness that defines and establishes the universe and all that is in it. We are HUMAN consciousness "machines."
No, God is much more than "Consciousness"--he is God.
4. Jesus is the one HUMAN who ACHIEVED the perfect God consciousness thereby connecting our species "output" to God and becoming ONE with God.
No, Jesus, as the only begotten Son, did not "achieve" anything in the way you are using the word -- He was always "ONE" with God. He is the Alpha and the Omega--always was, and always will be. By becoming human and sacrificing Himself on the cross, he allowed us the chance to share in Eternal Life with Him in Heaven.
You seem to me to be some kind of Buddhist with perhaps some Western mysticism thrown into the mix, along with some Enlightenment philosophy, who has a particularly deep appreciation for the person of Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to "label" you in order to dismiss you, rather, I am trying to place you in the larger context of known schools of thought. It is certainly clear to me however that you are in no way, shape, or form a "Christian" in the ordinary sense of the word -- no matter how deep and sincere your love and appreciation for and attachment to Jesus Christ may be.
You seem pretty smart too. The smartest Christians I know love St. Thomas Aquinas and C.S. Lewis--just a couple of suggestions to keep in mind.
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 12-12-2009 at 04:54 PM..
Enough of this. Christ did not come to make peace, but bring a sword. He came to divide and set variance against households, against authorities. those who are not worthy to suffer and follow him, and become hated by the world, is not worthy to be with him.
If I am hated here, I do not care. What I tell you is that Christ is no Buddah, no, nothing like him. He is the King of the universe that spoke us and all creation into existence. He is not the peacemaker with the world you characterize him as. If you accept him, you will have peace but not with the world, and therefore there is no peace to be made with humanity for the sake of humanity, rather judgement and swift destruction. Repent while you can for I know the time is very short and nearly upon us...
Enough of this. Christ did not come to make peace, but bring a sword. He came to divide and set variance against households, against authorities. those who are not worthy to suffer and follow him, and become hated by the world, is not worthy to be with him.
If I am hated here, I do not care. What I tell you is that Christ is no Buddah, no, nothing like him. He is the King of the universe that spoke us and all creation into existence. He is not the peacemaker with the world you characterize him as. If you accept him, you will have peace but not with the world, and therefore there is no peace to be made with humanity for the sake of humanity, rather judgement and swift destruction. Repent while you can for I know the time is very short and nearly upon us...
There are a lot of posts on this thread -- who are you addressing specifically?
a little bit different. jesus was not an ascetic that withdrew. he was in the middle of everything challenging left and right the establishment. more like civil disobediance, only with supernatural powers. he was a martyr, budda was not.
Jesus DID achieve that perfection in a HUMAN consciousness and made contact for ALL human consciousness possible. So in a purely structural context . . . there is no other WAY any other human consciousness can achieve ANY degree of resonance with God consciousness other than through the connection made by Jesus. That would hardly be bragging or boasting . . . just revealing fact.
And Jesus did this by praying to God for His Divine Love... easy as pie.
I seem to understand a lot better now where you are coming from. No matter how deeply we disagree on these matters, it's important to actually understand the viewpoint of the other as accurately as possible so as to make mutual rejection of said viewpoint credible, at the very least.
1. You don't seem to realize that whenever I encounter a man-made interpretation and doctrine that tells me . . . "I know it doesn't make any sense, but it's a mystery . . ." I know I am dealing with nothing from God.
I didn't before because you never explained it explicitly to me, but I do now. I'm not psychic, you know.
I don't think you do know. The trinity is no mystery it is quite simple really . . . once you lose the delusion of physicality and separateness of physical persons. Consciousness is consciousness wherever it resides. Three separate manifestations of the same consciousness is no mystery whatsoever.
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2. The requirement to actually GROW to achieve God consciousness within a human brain is far more believable to me . . . than it already being present from the seed stage in some magical concatenation of human and divine.
OK, it seems pretty clear now that you reject the incarnation as it's commonly understood by orthodox Christians.
It seems pretty clear you assume too much. I reject nothing of the sort . . . I just understand the reality of it scientifically . . . not magically or "supernaturally." The power of superstition is strong in humankind . . . but magic is not needed to understand it and NOTHING is "supernatural" . . . it is ALL natural and eventually explainable.
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3. God is Consciousness and it is God's consciousness that defines and establishes the universe and all that is in it. We are HUMAN consciousness "machines."
No, God is much more than "Consciousness"--he is God.
Of course He is God . . . and God is all there is. However, nothing without a consciousness can speak anything let alone "speak us into existence." We and our reality are mere "thoughts" in the mind of God. God's consciousness is what defines Him and us and all creation. There is nothing in our reality BUT His consciousness (a vibratory form of what our science calls energy) and what our scientists are vainly seeking with the Large Hadron Collider (God particles). Energy can neither be created nor destroyed . . . it is eternal . . . only its forms can change.
It is our consciousness that is created in His likeness . . . NOT our pitiful physical bodies. We can even create with our infant consciousness (a poor imitation of God's ability). The simple "physics" reality is that we are already eternal in the form of our "thoughts and feelings" accumulated over our lifetime. The only question is . . . what fate will each of us face in that form.
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4. Jesus is the one HUMAN who ACHIEVED the perfect God consciousness thereby connecting our species "output" to God and becoming ONE with God.
No, Jesus, as the only begotten Son, did not "achieve" anything in the way you are using the word -- He was always "ONE" with God. He is the Alpha and the Omega--always was, and always will be. By becoming human and sacrificing Himself on the cross, he allowed us the chance to share in Eternal Life with Him in Heaven.
Sorry . . . but if Jesus achieved nothing then we are irrelevant and have no purpose in existence. What a pitiful God it would be, IMO . . . if He really only made us to spend eternity "worshiping and serving Him" . . . especially given that He needs nothing and is all sufficient in Himself!!!
Personally . . . if not for the wondrous experience that is achieved when I am in deep meditation and contact with His love and acceptance . . . there would be no point to any of it. Worship as currently envisioned and practiced by the typical Christian seems tedious and boring to me. I couldn't engage in it for more than five minutes . . . let alone an eternity!
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You seem to me to be some kind of Buddhist with perhaps some Western mysticism thrown into the mix, along with some Enlightenment philosophy, who has a particularly deep appreciation for the person of Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to "label" you in order to dismiss you, rather, I am trying to place you in the larger context of known schools of thought. It is certainly clear to me however that you are in no way, shape, or form a "Christian" in the ordinary sense of the word -- no matter how deep and sincere your love and appreciation for and attachment to Jesus Christ may be.
There you go usurping God's prerogative and deciding who is and who isn't a Christian! That is not a safe practice (IMO) . . . but suit yourself. Jesus is my God and our Savior in every sense of the word. Whatever mumbo jumbo, hocus pocus and rigamarole you feel is necessary to add to that reality is man made nonsense as far as I'm concerned.
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You seem pretty smart too. The smartest Christians I know love St. Thomas Aquinas and C.S. Lewis--just a couple of suggestions to keep in mind.
I have read both and many, many more. Believe me when I tell you I was quite distraught when I learned God ACTUALLY exists. I have explored every conceivable explanation and viewpoint. I have arrived here very confidently, DreamingSpires . . and am quite content. God bless.
Consciousness is consciousness wherever it resides. Three separate manifestations of the same consciousness is no mystery whatsoever. God's consciousness is what defines Him and us and all creation. It is our consciousness that is created in His likeness . . . NOT our pitiful physical bodies. Jesus is my God and our Savior in every sense of the word. Whatever mumbo jumbo, hocus pocus and rigamarole you feel is necessary to add to that reality is man made nonsense as far as I'm concerned. I have read both and many, many more. Believe me when I tell you I was quite distraught when I learned God ACTUALLY exists. I have explored every conceivable explanation and viewpoint. I have arrived here very confidently, DreamingSpires . . and am quite content. God bless.
May I suggest that you continue exploring... then you will discover that God is soul. He created our souls in His image. When our souls awaken then we are consciously aware of this.
Jesus is not God and never was God and never will be God. However, he became at-one with God when he became a divine man insofar as obtaining the loving attributes that our Heavenly Father has.
If you are receiving it in your soul... and the way you describe the love that you feel when you meditate... it seems as if you are, because it is a strong and distinct love, like no other that we can ever receive from any human being.
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