Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Further, from your link:
Einstein came by his "scientific" insights not through experimentation and research, IOW the methods of science, but through inspiration, a type of revelation, you could say. What is "inspiration"? It originally meant "to become imbued ("in-") with Spirit. It very definitely had a religious connotation before the word became secularized.
After having his strokes of insight (whatever their mysterious source or cause), he subsequently had to figure out the math to explain (and make presentable to the scientific community) the inherent principles behind his visions of "how things worked".
These are not the words, nor is it the m.o., of someone who isn't religious in any way.
thank you for the full import of the link. Nicely done
Further, from your link:
Einstein came by his "scientific" insights not through experimentation and research, IOW the methods of science, but through inspiration, a type of revelation, you could say. What is "inspiration"? It originally meant "to become imbued ("in-") with Spirit. It very definitely had a religious connotation before the word became secularized.
After having his strokes of insight (whatever their mysterious source or cause), he subsequently had to figure out the math to explain (and make presentable to the scientific community) the inherent principles behind his visions of "how things worked".
These are not the words, nor is it the m.o., of someone who isn't religious in any way.
How was Einstein proven wrong? By whom?
Divinity does not play. No dice.
Ah. Context is everything, as I say from time to time on C-D. It's particularly important here. He made his statement in a very specific context. It was with regard to the uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics, which states, to stuff it into a nutshell, that phenomena at the quantum level are random and unpredictable. Only probabilities of an outcome can be given. As Einstein believed deeply in an orderly, harmonious universe of Divine conception, he believed there were laws that explained all phenomena, and therefore could predict the outcome of subatomic interactions. It was the scientists' job to discover and describe that complex of laws, he felt.
Quote:
We can only predict how probable an event is to happen (like how many probabilities are there for six to come out when we throw dice). It was this uncertainty that Einstein disagreed with. In his opinion, every event and the physical properties of each individual particle can, and must be measured with high precision. Quantum physics does not allow for that; it tells you how probable it is for a system of particles to behave in a certain way but it will never tell you how each individual particle belonging to that system will behave. Einstein could not accept this level of randomness and uncertainty in nature and the universe and he expressed his opinion in the sentence “God does not play dice”.
Quote:
Einstein was not an atheist as he said himself in an interview in 1929. Einstein had his personal views about religion and he believed in what he called “cosmic religion” where God’s presence was evident in the order and rationality of nature and the universe in all its aspects and expressions. Chaos and randomness are, therefore, not part of nature (“God does not play dice”).
According to Einstein, “cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research”. In his opinion, the goal of a scientist should be to try to begin to understand the universe. Einstein had a deep feeling of awe in front of nature and the universe and he believed that “strenuous intellectual work and the study of God’s Nature are the angels that will lead me through all the troubles of this life with consolation, strength, and uncompromising rigor” (letter to Pauline Winteler, 1897).
On another occasion, Einstein wrote to a colleague on the same topic:
Quote:
The quotation says, “Quantum theory yields much, but it hardly brings us close to the Old One’s secrets. I, in any case, am convinced He does not play dice with the universe.” It was addressed by Einstein to Max Born (one of the fathers of Quantum Mechanics) in a letter that he wrote to Born in 1926.
Wow, well, I've never been religious in any conventional sense,or at all though it's kind of creeping up on me in more recent years, but I never had any doubt Jesus was a historical personage. 3 religions acknowledge him, or maybe that's not quite correct with respect to Judaism, but Jewish historians acknowledge he existed; I'm not clear on his role in the religion per se, but don't you think that carries some weight?
I think the people who insist there's no evidence for his existence are limiting themselves to the so-called Christian world and its holy book as their reference points, plus any relevant archaeology, rather than looking farther afield, but I could be wrong. And btw, since I've never believed Jesus was anything more than human, I've never "blasphemed" God or Jesus, because, you know, they don't have any special significance to me, so....why? Why do people do that anyway, I've never understood.
But should people's faith depend on whether their deity-of-choice manifests any goodies for them? Is that what faith is about? Is that what it's for---getting goodies? Some spiritually-oriented people are able to see miracles in the everyday facts and occurrences of life. Others see miracles in instances of people surviving accidents and disasters against all odds, seemingly in contradiction of the laws of science. You could say, that's just their projections, but they're getting confirmation of their faith, which you never did. Maybe you just didn't have the right mindset?
Jesus is not part of the religion of Judaism.
he has no role whatsoever in the religion of Judaism.
Further, from your link:
Einstein came by his "scientific" insights not through experimentation and research, IOW the methods of science, but through inspiration, a type of revelation, you could say. What is "inspiration"? It originally meant "to become imbued ("in-") with Spirit. It very definitely had a religious connotation before the word became secularized.
After having his strokes of insight (whatever their mysterious source or cause), he subsequently had to figure out the math to explain (and make presentable to the scientific community) the inherent principles behind his visions of "how things worked".
These are not the words, nor is it the m.o., of someone who isn't religious in any way.
Wow, well, I've never been religious in any conventional sense,or at all though it's kind of creeping up on me in more recent years, but I never had any doubt Jesus was a historical personage. 3 religions acknowledge him, or maybe that's not quite correct with respect to Judaism, but Jewish historians acknowledge he existed; I'm not clear on his role in the religion per se, but don't you think that carries some weight?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Jesus is not part of the religion of Judaism.
he has no role whatsoever in the religion of Judaism.
at all.
Sadly, that is quite understandable given what the Christian religion based on Him became. The irony from my perspective as someone who has encountered God and identified Him with the persona of Jesus in the Christian narrative is that His claims seem to validate the very Torah from which His existence was presumably foretold, IMO.
The literal Godlike flexibility of the Hebrew language to communicate spiritual content within otherwise worldly content just adds to its credibility as originating from God. They had the Mosaic Law so if that worldly content was what God wanted from them there would have been no need for any so-called Messiah.
I have discovered the spiritual content and I am convinced it is the spiritual content of their very own Torah that God desired to highlight for them, The spiritual message of agape love and reconciliation in the very life, actions, and death of Jesus contravene their belief in a jealous dictator God, IMO. Regrettably, the Hebrews seem to have eschewed the spiritual content in their very own Torah in favor of its worldly content resulting in their rejection of Jesus.
It seems to me the actual problem with the Abrahamic religions has been the assumption that there are different Gods who FAVOR different people referred to in the preferred "Holy" books. It is strangely reminiscent of sibling rivalry.
But they are simply different HUMAN INTERPRETATIONS of God. In fact, Marcion and the Gnostics tried to frame those differences as real and were cast out of Christianity as heresy because of it. We are a perverse species, IMO.
What's the position of Jewish historians on the historicity of Jesus?
he was a Jew. his entire life he lived as a Jew and taught as a Jew.
there is a long list of "messiah claims" in Jewish history. his is one of the names on that list.
detail:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
There is a long list of people in Judaism who claimed to be the messiah, and Judaism rejects all of them, because they do not meet the criteria set forth by Judaism. Did some of these names listed have followers and start their own sects and religions? Yes they did. Does that make any of them the messiah according to Judaism? No it does not.
Here is a list of names of other claimed messiahs in Judaism, link shown at bottom of post. Judaism is very consistent in rejecting every name on this list from the first to the last. It will be very obvious when the person Moschiach is here because there will be world peace. We aren't there yet. The whole world will know when it happens and the whole world will recognize God. Moschiach is a person, a human. Moschiach is not God. Jews don't worship humans, dead or alive. Worshipping humans dead or alive is idolatry for Jews.
1st century
Jesus c.. 30 CE
Vespasian c. 70 CE
2nd century
Simon bar Kokhba c. 135 CE
5th century
Moses of Crete
7th century
unknownclaimant who arose at time of conquest of Khuzistan.
8th century
Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Yudghan
Serene
12th century
One appeared in France c. 1087
]Another appeared in the province of Córdoba c. 1117
Mosesal-Dar'i a Moroccan teacher,
David Alroy in Persia about 1160
TheYemenite Messiah
13th century
Abraham ben Samuel Abulafia 1291
Nissimben Abrahamaround 1295
15th century
Moses Botarel of Cisneros around1413
16th century
Asher Lämmlein, Asher Kaei a German near Venice in 1502
David Reubeni 1541 and Solomon Molcho 1532
17th century
Sabbatai Zevi 1676
BarukhiaRusso 1740
MordecaiMokia 1729
Jacob Querido 1690
Miguel (Abraham)Cardoso 1706
Löbele Prossnitz 1750
18th century
Jacob Joseph Frank 1791
Eve Frank 1817
19th century
Shukr Kuhayl I19th-century Yemenite
Judah ben Shalom(Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-centuryYemenite
20th century
Moses Guibbory 1899–1985
Yosef YitzchakSchneersohn
Menachem MendelSchneerson 1994
I think the people who insist there's no evidence for his existence are limiting themselves to the so-called Christian world and its holy book as their reference points, plus any relevant archaeology, rather than looking farther afield, but I could be wrong.
The problem is that all this extra evidence for a historical Jesus derives from later Christian fictional allegories.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
