Atheism As A REJECTION OF--Not Disbelief In--An Evil God (disciples, churches, gospels)
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That said, I think what thrill typically rails about and/or blames on a higher thing is all that is so challenging for us humans to contend with that is out of our control. Disease, infirmity, aging, natural disasters, death and all that kind of fun stuff.
Yeah, I understand it’s difficult (for many) to accept; that said, how does blaming (the perception of) a god make a difference? At the end of the day, it’s still a matter of accepting ‘it is what it is’, only one has now added frustration to the mix as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Depends on the atheist when it comes to what atheists say...
Exactly! :-) Else, it’s simply ‘groupthink’ (which is quite common on the internet, particularly relative to this type of forum).
Sounds like you've got a bit of that "clinging-to-god-ism" problem too, only they want to commend God while you want to blame God. Both a little silly from my point of view...
Here's hoping that child and everyone else is spared any more pain and suffering than necessary in any case. Though some pain and suffering seems inevitable no matter what anyone believes.
I wouldn't say that since I don't believe in god in this point of my life.
But I don't see the logic in them thanking god for all these surgeries and procedures. It's a like a person praying that, "Well, I got through gall bladder surgery. I hope god now makes me have open heart surgery".
I warned you about those psychotropics, Gldn. They cause otherwise incoherent people to start hallucinating all sorts of crazy stuff they think other people have said. You never heard me say I think Yahweh is all-loving when I think he doesn't even exist. The Bible portrays Yahweh as:
Yahweh possess not a single redeeming quality I can think of. Now the REAL being I believe might exist is to the center of everything Dawkins says above about Yahweh. He is cold, uncaring, unfeeling, non-committed, uncommunicative, reticent, couldn't-give-damn-about-anything-or-anyone.
Setting aside your usual childish insults suggesting drug use. Against the TOS, by the way.
The reason I posted what I did was that yesterday, mordant said: Thrill is a deconvert from Christianity but not an atheist. He's still disappointed in what he understands to be the promises of god.
Blaming god would actually be substantively different than blaming humans if the god is all knowing, all loving and all powerful, so that it could be held to a perfect standard.
You responded...never questioning the noted attributes of God: I would say this is on par, mordant a very good description of my problem with this higher power I call God for convenience. In the first paragraph there just one flaw: this higher power I think orchestrated life here and then abandoned us, it did not make any promises because it is a deist being; it started life and then left us to evolve on our own without any intention of helping us, much like a deadbeat dad who gets a girl pregnant and then skipped town leaving the girl all alone.
Yeah, I understand it’s difficult (for many) to accept; that said, how does blaming (the perception of) a god make a difference? At the end of the day, it’s still a matter of accepting ‘it is what it is’, only one has now added frustration to the mix as well.
Exactly! :-) Else, it’s simply ‘groupthink’ (which is quite common on the internet, particularly relative to this type of forum).
Time for me to sign off now and get on with preparing our BSB, which I dare say is far more productive than any additional key strokes by me will prove to be in this forum...
Just one thought about crediting or blaming God before I go however. The theist can always take some comfort from thinking "God works in mysterious ways" and as such, even when the pain and suffering is difficult to accept in any way, there is the sense all will be well in the end. Up to and including after death.
Atheists can't really enjoy that comfort.
If on the other hand the inclination is to blame god, this too has a certain level of comfort, because there is a direction in which to channel that pain and suffering. That "mental punching bag" I mentioned earlier.
Atheists can't really enjoy that comfort either.
We atheists find comfort in other ways however, and ultimately as I always say, "whatever works!" Regardless what the truth of these matters may be.
Here's to as pain-free a Sunday possible for you and yours. Cheers!
I was referring to your religious beliefs before becoming a deist. I thought your basis for having expectations of god was that he had certain ... commitments to you as a believer. Perhaps I am wrong? But as a deist I would imagine that it is hard to have such expectations since god is not involved with you (or even has turned away) anyhow.
I am not Mr. Sunshine but tend to see the world as just a little less 100% tragic than you. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. But I can generally wring pleasure out of a given day now that I have learned not to get stuck on the aspects of my life that are not what I planned or hoped for. I am not in the "top 1%" but am closer than most I suppose given than I'm debt free and have cobbled together some sort of plausible retirement plan. It is hard for me to know how much of my ability to have any hope or optimism comes from that. If some of the possible scenarios play out in coming months or years, I may get a chance to explore a more ... sparse sort of existence for all I know, and then I'll have a better idea, I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
I think one of the best examples of what we might call 'clinging-to-god-ism' has been a local story here on one of the other forums. I've lost track now of how old the baby is, but certainly less than 2 years old, and he has had something like a dozen surgeries and procedures all directly or indirectly related to his heart. There's a 'prayer brigade' that has formed in this forum to pray specifically for this baby health, and obviously they are working overtime. And EVERYTIME he has ANOTHER surgery or procedure they thank god. I look at it completely differently. I wanna say, "Hey god, you screwed up bad. Why do you keep putting this baby and this family through this kind of hell. Now fix it once and for all. See if you can finally get it right".
As a Christian for about 60 years I confess I was just too stupid to question any of this. I just went along with the status quo. It was around 2013 when I was 63 that someone in here challenged me to investigate some questions I had as to why God never seemed to answer prayers as jesus promised he would, and that started me on this hunt to uncover the truth. Once learning about all the dirty laundry in Christianity's closet, from that point I began my gradual deconversion into reprobation.
And with respect to phet's admonishment to God bold above, as a deist being, it is not going to hear or listen to anything--pleas or otherwise--that we offer to it. It is totally deaf to anything we have to say. My stance is that from a moral point of view it caused us to be made when it set the natural laws of physics and evolution into place some 10 billion or so years ago but it has never once been involved with us after that. So it would be analogous to a man planting his sperm in a woman and then immediately disappearing, leaving her to go through the 9-month gestation, birth and raising the child all by herself with no contact from him. But he morally still owes her the duty of care, except that he's ignoring that moral duty. That's my argument; this being owes us but it will never take any responsibility for what it caused to be created.
As a Christian for about 60 years I confess I was just too stupid to question any of this. I just went along with the status quo. It was around 2013 when I was 63 that someone in here challenged me to investigate some questions I had as to why God never seemed to answer prayers as jesus promised he would, and that started me on this hunt to uncover the truth. Once learning about all the dirty laundry in Christianity's closet, from that point I began my gradual deconversion into reprobation.
And with respect to phet's admonishment to God bold above, as a deist being, it is not going to hear or listen to anything--pleas or otherwise--that we offer to it. It is totally deaf to anything we have to say. My stance is that from a moral point of view it caused us to be made when it set the natural laws of physics and evolution into place some 10 billion or so years ago but it has never once been involved with us after that. So it would be analogous to a man planting his sperm in a woman and then immediately disappearing, leaving her to go through the 9-month gestation, birth and raising the child all by herself with no contact from him. But he morally still owes her the duty of care, except that he's ignoring that moral duty. That's my argument; this being owes us but it will never take any responsibility for what it caused to be created.
Remember, my post was questioning how god-ists look at this.
I have acknowledged any number of times that there could be a deist god...certainly not the christian god.
Yeah, I understand it’s difficult (for many) to accept; that said, how does blaming (the perception of) a god make a difference? At the end of the day, it’s still a matter of accepting ‘it is what it is’, only one has now added frustration to the mix as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Just one thought about crediting or blaming God before I go however. The theist can always take some comfort from thinking "God works in mysterious ways" and as such, even when the pain and suffering is difficult to accept in any way, there is the sense all will be well in the end. Up to and including after death.
Atheists can't really enjoy that comfort.
There’s more comfort as an atheist, from my perspective, in accepting things are the way they are rather than blaming (or feeling cheated/frustrated’ by) a god. Then one can simply focus on what they intend to do about it rather than feeling victimized or short-changed i.e. it just is (as I asked relative to frustration, above). Note the threads relative to such are usually angry in nature.
Ultimately, one needs to accept those things we cannot change whether one believes in a god or not, yes?
You have not found out where this story came from? Why not?
Sure seems to me that any stories like these that are the essential "building blocks" of the religions followed by millions/billions of people around the world deserve a bit more investigation than it seems you have bothered to invest. Just like learning the history of religion around the world since the beginning. Clearly you have invested just about all your efforts in the stories that make up just the one religion I suspect you have been exclusively committed to for most of your life. Close?
I suspect my own difficulty comprehending the acceptance of some of these clearly barbarous and primitive rationales stems from my lack od indoctrination early on. I HAD to spend an inordinate amount of time in the spiritual fossil record learning about these views and their sources. I would note that it is probably a whole lot easier and less problematic to come to God via the route EscalaMike and most have, but it tends to harden (or cement?) their perspective mightily.
There’s more comfort as an atheist, from my perspective, in accepting things are the way they are rather than blaming (or feeling cheated/frustrated’ by) a god. Then one can simply focus on what they intend to do about it rather than feeling victimized or short-changed i.e. it just is (as I asked relative to frustration, above). Note the threads relative to such are usually angry in nature.
Ultimately, one needs to accept those things we cannot change whether one believes in a god or not, yes?
Yes. I take some comfort in the same way, or as a theist might put it...
"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference."
Remember, my post was questioning how god-ists look at this.
I have acknowledged any number of times that there could be a deist god...certainly not the christian god.
I once cited one instance (among innumerable) for why I gave up the Christian god, as I had determined--after this research I previously spoke of--that Yahweh was a pagan false god. Part of what led me to this conclusion was the fact that there is ample evidence that the gospel texts were altered to change parts of the narrative early Christian leaders didn't like. EscMike vociferously denies this. But no better glaring example that this is factual can be found than a comparison between Mark 16:8 and Matthew 28:8
Mark 16:8--"Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid."
The women were confused and bewildered and scared by what they witnessed. They ran and told NO ONE of what they saw. This would include the apostles.
The early church leaders didn't like this passage, which is why they tagged on the infamous longer ending some centuries later to read that the women did tell the apostles, Jesus appeared to them and then gave them the command to spread the gospel.
Now here's Matthew 28:8. Notice how the text of Mark has been drastically altered:
Matthew 28:8--"So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples."
Suddenly the women are no longer fearful and silent, they are filled with joy and do tell the disciples about what they saw.
Mark: they told no one. Matthew: they told someone, the disciples.
Look for a logical honest answer to why this happened and you won't find one. The Christian god would never have allowed such a shameful travesty to happen if he was real, therefore we can write off Yahweh as a fictional mythical god. Two gods, one who doesn't exist and the other one who does care.
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) their perspective mightily.
