Atheism As A REJECTION OF--Not Disbelief In--An Evil God (disciples, Mormonism, church)
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I half agree with you here. Not that the other poster is a "crackpot conspiracy thinker", but that I think what he is questioning is probably wrong. I will make a presumption that there were 12 men who are described as Jesus' disciples. But what do we really know about them? How do we know they were telling the truth? How do we know that they weren't a bit loony?
The reason to doubt is that they are not mentioned until Mark, who paints the disciples as so incredibly stupid, Jesus has to explain what would have been obvious to them. But they are simply a device to teach the audience, and a device to get back at the Jewish opponents of Paul's gentile Christianity. Mark particularly attacks the disciples Peter, James and John, which just happens to be the three pillars of the Jewish church initially opposed to Paul.
Paul does say there were 12 and 3 at the top, but he never calls anyone a disciple, and the 12 and 3 structure is mirrored in the Essene Community, so that could have just been an organization thing, and not 12 disciples.
And if 1 Peter is a genuine letter of the apostle Peter, it is strange he never mentions he was a disciple when he would.
And if one reads Hebrews, it says the one and only sacrifice of Jesus was in heaven, not on earth. So no crucifixion on earth. And if the crucifixion on earth is a fiction, why not the disciples?
I'm not asking you to believe or accept anything. It's just that those of your ilk keep telling me that I have no evidence for believing these things. I beg to differ, and have been trying to explain why.
1. And we have been telling you that your evidence is lacking in reliability.
2. Just to point out, when I say "you" I am talking about 'the christians', not necessarily "you" specifically.
There's a reason certain Gospels were rejected and certain Gospels were accepted in the canon. It wasn't arbitrary.
Correct, the early ones were kept because they were required, others were dismissed because they were theologically unsound. Acts of Peter has a spiritual resurrection, for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Such as?
Paul, Hebrews, 1 Clement. Not once does he mention disciples, and argues in Galatians like his life depended on it that he learnt from Jesus in revelation, never from a person.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected according to scripture.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected according to scripture.
He's talking about the Old Testament - that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection were prophesied and foreshadowed there. The Gospels has not yet been written.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Romans 16:25-26.
You sure do offer up some original and interesting interpretations. As you ought to have ascertained about me by now, I tend to value tradition much more than novelty.
He's talking about the Old Testament - that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection were prophesied and foreshadowed there. The Gospels has not yet been written.
That is not what the text says. It says according to scripture, not prophesied in scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
You sure do offer up some original and interesting interpretations. As you ought to have ascertained about me by now, I tend to value tradition much more than novelty.
So give me one account of a disciple dying for their belief.
No, there are accounts of their deaths. But read the reasons for those deaths. Not once do they die for their beliefs.
The most obvious is the account of the martyrdom of James in Acts 12. Peter is said to have been martyred in Rome, Andrew is said to have been martyred in Greece, Thomas was martyred in India... They were all killed for religious reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Joseph Smith.
Interesting. You seem to be claiming several things here:
1) Joseph Smith completely fabricated his vision of Moroni and knew he was lying, etc
2) His motivation for founding Mormonism was pure (i.e. making the world a better place) rather than for his own sexual gratification and/or potential personal gain
3) His death had to do with religious convictions rather than power motives / illegal acts of overt violence
That is not what the text says. It says according to scripture, not prophesied in scripture.
What do you think Paul meant by "Scripture"?
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