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Humans have a limitation in every thing they have. If a human could figure out ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in the entire universe then perhaps he would become a God.
Anyway, talking about grains of sand on planet earth, and the most smallest of good deeds and the most smallest of bad deeds humans do - who can keep an account of those? No human can; however, there IS going to be accountability of everyone to the level of grain of a sand or even a smaller particle.
Only 8 short verses. Check out Quran 99 if you are open to learn and increase your knowledge.
What makes you think being chastised for every miniscule bad act will be at all helpful? What will it accomplish?
Should you be "judged" for telling a little white lie in order to save someone's life? If you steal bread from a fat, rich merchant to feed your starving child? If you cheat your way through a test or problem that was inherently unfair to begin with? Life is filled with the color gray, not black and white. Unfortunately, your god is very much black and white - any judgment from him will simply be a lesson in legal absolutism; a "zero tolerance" policy on sin. Of course, zero tolerance policies are more likely to ensnare the good and innocent than the bad and guilty.
There is no logical or worthwhile reason to dredge up every thing you've ever done. If we've felt guilt, if we tried to make amends, if we did our best to avoid engaging in bad acts, if we grew up and matured, then we've already learned our lesson. How will reopening those cases and rehashing them again in Heaven going to make us better?
A lot of different religions claim to have all humans being judged by some cosmic district attorney. It only means that humans care deeply for fairness and justice. We want the bad to be punished and the good rewarded. Except the world often doesn't work that way. Bad things happen to good people while bad people seem to prosper. It's comforting - not to mention soothing to our sense of justice - to think that every bad person will "get theirs" in the end. To believe that what comes around really does go around. So the Big Judge in the Sky was invented to make people feel as though bad people will be punished even if they escape earthly justice.
But it's a lot of crap, if you ask me. Once the idea of repentance entered religious dogma there could never be true final judgment. What's worse is that religious rules rather than moral rules became the measuring stick by which to determine who is good or bad.
The only justice that exists is the justice we find right here and right now. If the bad guy gets away, well, sometimes it happens. But the idea that god is going to rehash every "grain of sand" in your life is just plain absurd.
So you choose to believe in a god because you consider that the safest bet.
Considering how tortuously you tried to twist the definition of the word "hope" to fit the way you want to see things, I can't help wondering now how you define the word "believe." When I believe something, it's because I really believe it - because it really represents who I am and what I stand for. Not because I think going through the motions and pretending to believe it is the best way to cover my eternal ass.
I don't mind if we use "common sense" instead of the words "fear or hope".
There could be variations to it but I think there are 4 basic scenarios.
1 - I believe in God, I try to live my life as per my God's recommendations, and after my death I find that my believe was true - I have a great chance of making it.
2 - I believe there is God, and I try to regulate and organize my life as per God's recommendation, and after my death, I find that there is no God - I am still happy that I lived a good organized and honest life where I went beyond the local govt guidelines to forbid and refrains from what's wrong - and I also spend my life doing what my God recomended as "good" (taking care of my family - caring for my neighbor - helping the poor - donate to charity - speak pleasant words - be polite to people - kind to animals, children, and people in general - avoid speaking lies, deceiving, and hurting others etc etc. I will be leaving from this world extremely satisfied.
3 - I did not believe in God, and after I die, I find that there is no God then I am still not a loser
4 - BUT - I did not believe in God, I didn't care about, who created me, why am I created, and what my creator wants from me, what's the purpose of my life - and after I die, I find that there is actually a God, and now there is an accountability - Then there is trouble.
Using "common sense" and perhaps pretty basic intelligence, I will try to avoid scenario 3 because it opens up the possibility of making me face scenario 4. And I definitely don't want scenario 4.
You may not agree with me, but my common sense tells me that scenario 1 is my best bet.
5. I did not believe in god, I spent my life as a good person anyway, I cared very much about my purpose in life and being kind to others and giving something back. As an atheist I am fascinated by how the universe works and how it can be explained mathematically.
After I die I find out there is a god and afterlife. He gives me a big gold star made out of chocolate for spending my life thinking for myself and using my brain. Turns out he's totally unconcerned about whether I believed in him or not.
6. I did not believe in god, I spent my life as a good person anyway, I cared very much about my purpose in life and being kind to others and giving something back. As an atheist I am fascinated by how the universe works and how it can be explained mathematically.
After I die, I am dead. The end. But at least I made good use of my life.
7. I did not believe in god, I spent my life as a good person anyway, I cared very much about my purpose in life and being kind to others and giving something back. As an atheist I am fascinated by how the universe works and how it can be explained mathematically.
After I die it turns out there is a god and despite using my brain etc turns out he is furious with me just because I am an atheist. Turns out this god is totally unreasonable.
So you choose to believe in a god because you consider that the safest bet.
Considering how tortuously you tried to twist the definition of the word "hope" to fit the way you want to see things, I can't help wondering now how you define the word "believe." When I believe something, it's because I really believe it - because it really represents who I am and what I stand for. Not because I think going through the motions and pretending to believe it is the best way to cover my eternal ass.
Let's swap the word hope with belief.
You "believe" in something (say "in God" for this example) and it turns out at the end of the day that your belief was incorrect/false or it comes out true after we die.
You "believe" in something (say "no God") and it turns out that your belief is correct or incorrect.
Either way you got to go thru the four very basic scenarios as I posted above.
The problem is life and death.
If I had any control over myself to decide whether I want to come to this world or not, OR if I had any control to live forever and never leave the world (stay young and healthy forever) then perhaps I did not need to believe in God.
But since both scenarios are not in the hands of ANY human being, it tells me that there is someone else in control.
5. I did not believe in god, I spent my life as a good person anyway, I cared very much about my purpose in life and being kind to others and giving something back. As an atheist I am fascinated by how the universe works and how it can be explained mathematically.
After I die I find out there is a god and afterlife. He gives me a big gold star made out of chocolate for spending my life thinking for myself and using my brain. Turns out he's totally unconcerned about whether I believed in him or not.
6. I did not believe in god, I spent my life as a good person anyway, I cared very much about my purpose in life and being kind to others and giving something back. As an atheist I am fascinated by how the universe works and how it can be explained mathematically.
After I die, I am dead. The end. But at least I made good use of my life.
7. I did not believe in god, I spent my life as a good person anyway, I cared very much about my purpose in life and being kind to others and giving something back. As an atheist I am fascinated by how the universe works and how it can be explained mathematically.
After I die it turns out there is a god and despite using my brain etc turns out he is furious with me just because I am an atheist. Turns out this god is totally unreasonable.
I'm going with option 6.
These are all reasonable scenarios and I am not going to dismiss either one of them.
The questions arises, what is good and what is bad? Who is going to decide?
If it comes to socities, culture or individuals then it's almost impossible that we have a unanimous agreement on "what's good and what's bad".
Take for example, (on a social level) - a male hugging a female friend during meet ups is seen as a good gesture in many societies.
On the other hand, male having female friends, or a male making a physical contact with a female friend or business-counterpart is not so good and an approved gesture by the social norms of that society.
So which one is good ? There seem to be a conflict.
On an Individual level, for example - say an Atheist believes there is nothing wrong in drinking alcohol; but when he faces God (if he finds one after death) and finds out that it was really not a good act in the eyes of God ?
So to settle this, for a believer, it's God who decides what's good and what's bad. The burden of decision is not on the believer. But yes, he can surely go on a quest to figure out that why some things are encouraged by my God and why some things are forbidden/restrained?
And if we go by the believers way where the scales will be set, then the most heaviest "good thing" in the scale is the belief in God.
An athiest (if he finds God after death) loses the biggest advantage and starts off with the wrong foot right from the beginning.
If I go by your scenario 6, then I would like to make a small twist to it.
I will start off by believing that yes, universe has a creator (this my base) - now let my try to figure out how did he do it and how can I mathematically explain to appreciate this awesome creation of the creator.
Matter of fact, Quran has repeadetly encouraged believers to ponder upon the creation of universe. Check it out, various verses.
Last edited by GoCardinals; 05-23-2015 at 02:15 PM..
From the Atheist point of view,
How is or should justice be rendered to, for example, Hitler?
I guess it depends on whether Hitler really, sincerely repented for his sins and accepted Jesus Christ as his savior before he died. If he did, doesn't he get a free eternal pass?
I guess it depends on whether Hitler really, sincerely repented for his sins and accepted Jesus Christ as his savior before he died. If he did, doesn't he get a free eternal pass?
No one gets a pass for anything! We reap what we sow . . . but only what we sow . . . no more and no less.
No one gets a pass for anything! We reap what we sow . . . but only what we sow . . . no more and no less.
Sorry, but karmic justice is just another fairy tale. Observation of the world around me for these 60-plus years has taught me the folly of such a belief.
I guess it depends on whether Hitler really, sincerely repented for his sins and accepted Jesus Christ as his savior before he died. If he did, doesn't he get a free eternal pass?
From Islamic point of view, we don't know.
He will be judged by having his good and bad deeds scaled. And it's purely up to God whether he forgives him or not. And Islamic God is surely merciful but he is not unjust.
From a Christian point of view? I don't know because I am not a Christian.
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