Do Atheists believe in Justice? (bible, demons, Quran, create)
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What other way would you prefer? A world where we are all forced to be good? A world without choice? God desires for people to choose Him freely and frankly I don't blame Him. Would you want people to be forced to be your friend, your lover, your spouse? I know I wouldn't.
What other way would you prefer? A world where we are all forced to be good? A world without choice? God desires for people to choose Him freely and frankly I don't blame Him. Would you want people to be forced to be your friend, your lover, your spouse? I know I wouldn't.
Really. Then why does your god threaten to burn people in hell for eternity if they don't "freely choose him?"
I haven't read through the whole thread, but imo, Christians can be most apathetic regarding justice. They half-heartedly seek justice assuming that all will be taken care of in the "afterlife." They "forgive" a person (thinking that is what they are "supposed" to do), and then basically let someone get away with murder because they think that their god will somehow make the person pay in the end. By their actions (or rather inaction) I do not think that Christians really believe in justice. I think they believe in the concept of justice, but not always in doing what it takes to prevent the miscarriage of justice.
Really. Then why does your god threaten to burn people in hell for eternity if they don't "freely choose him?"
Haven't you watched the GodFather movies? The "Or Else" is always implicit. Just joshing with you Albert. I find the incongruity in the typical Christian thinking about Hell to be quite an enigma. It is a strong indicator of the power of early indoctrination into a concept . . . even one as monstrous as Hell..
What other way would you prefer? A world where we are all forced to be good? A world without choice? God desires for people to choose Him freely and frankly I don't blame Him. Would you want people to be forced to be your friend, your lover, your spouse? I know I wouldn't.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with free will. God would not force anyone to be good by being good himself. People would still freely choose him, or not, if he was good to them.
I am good to the family that lives next door; I for example gave them a bed I could have sold for $$ because I could see they needed it. That doesn't in any way mean I'm forcing them to be my friend. In fact we've barely spoken since, and that's fine -- he's a paramedic, she's a professor and they have three kids, one of whom is profoundly handicapped. And they're 25 years younger than me. So they are busy and we don't have that much in common socially. But you see, I wasn't good to them in order to coerce or dupe them into liking me. I saw an opportunity to make a difference and I did. And they are free to never speak to me again, or otherwise, as they see fit.
If a crusty old turd like me can pull that off, then it's not too much to ask of a deity.
Now if I set this up like god I would sit here with my bed and expect them to ask me if they could have it. And then I would judge whether they were worthy or not, and maybe withhold it if I didn't think they were bowing and scraping enough or in the right way, or if their kids were too noisy or the lady of the house wore her skirt too short or some other arbitrary thing. Or if I felt it would "make" them like me. Or if they didn't ask enough times. In fact I might not answer their request at all, because, ya know, I move in mysterious ways my wonders to perform.
Now if I did that, how insecure and boogery would you think I was? Withholding something they need or even just could benefit from, for some bogus concern for their "free will"? And claiming to love and care about them as well?
Really. Then why does your god threaten to burn people in hell for eternity if they don't "freely choose him?"
It's totally the opposite.
If God wanted, he could create humans and keep throwing them in hell - no question asked. Why? because God is the creator and owner of the human being, and he can do WHATEVER he wants to do with them. God is not answerable to anyone!
So it's a mercy of God that he gave us choice.
So to answer your question with a reciprocal question,
Why does not man choose to accept God as his master and enjoy the fruits?
If denying God is a choice that leads to hell, then accepting God is also a choice that leads to heaven.
When man chooses to deny God, then this is also his own choice. God does not put a gun to the head of any person to believe or deny him.
Please tell me, why would you not jump out of an air plane without a parachute AT FREE WILL?
Why don't you put your hand in hot fire AT FREE WILL?
Why don't you jump into the cage of a tiger in a zoo AT FREE WILL ?
The answer is simple, you use your logic, intelligence and common sense to make the right choice that's not harmful to you.
Same is the case with believing and non-believing in God.
The believers have made a smart choice as per their logic, intelligence and common sense to avoid hell that is harmful to them.
If God wanted, he could create humans and keep throwing them in hell - no question asked. Why? because God is the creator and owner of the human being, and he can do WHATEVER he wants to do with them. God is not answerable to anyone!
So it's a mercy of God that he gave us choice.
So to answer your question with a reciprocal question,
Why does not man choose to accept God as his master and enjoy the fruits?
If denying God is a choice that leads to hell, then accepting God is also a choice that leads to heaven.
When man chooses to deny God, then this is also his own choice. God does not put a gun to the head of any person to believe or deny him.
Please tell me, why would you not jump out of an air plane without a parachute AT FREE WILL?
Why don't you put your hand in hot fire AT FREE WILL?
Why don't you jump into the cage of a tiger in a zoo AT FREE WILL ?
The answer is simple, you use your logic, intelligence and common sense to make the right choice that's not harmful to you.
Same is the case with believing and non-believing in God.
The believers have made a smart choice as per their logic, intelligence and common sense to avoid hell that is harmful to them.
So you think that for the crime of not believing in god, = the punishment of eternal hellfire is perfectly reasonable? And you call this 'justice'? You don't think that is a bit over the top as a punishment? In other words believe in me - or else! It's a choice! Except not really. LOL
What happened to post #93 that you seemed to think was reasonable at the time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne
7. I did not believe in god, I spent my life as a good person anyway, I cared very much about my purpose in life and being kind to others and giving something back. As an atheist I am fascinated by how the universe works and how it can be explained mathematically.
After I die it turns out there is a god and despite using my brain etc turns out he is furious with me just because I am an atheist. Turns out this god is totally unreasonable.
I suppose god can do what he likes though right? Not for us to question gods irrationality and ridiculous over the top punishment. Really, come on GoCardinals do you think if there really was a god he'd be so self absorbed and needy? Why would he give a toss whether humans believed in him or not?
If God wanted, he could create humans and keep throwing them in hell - no question asked. Why? because God is the creator and owner of the human being, and he can do WHATEVER he wants to do with them. God is not answerable to anyone!
So it's a mercy of God that he gave us choice.
So to answer your question with a reciprocal question,
Why does not man choose to accept God as his master and enjoy the fruits?
If denying God is a choice that leads to hell, then accepting God is also a choice that leads to heaven.
When man chooses to deny God, then this is also his own choice. God does not put a gun to the head of any person to believe or deny him.
Please tell me, why would you not jump out of an air plane without a parachute AT FREE WILL?
Why don't you put your hand in hot fire AT FREE WILL?
Why don't you jump into the cage of a tiger in a zoo AT FREE WILL ?
The answer is simple, you use your logic, intelligence and common sense to make the right choice that's not harmful to you.
Same is the case with believing and non-believing in God.
The believers have made a smart choice as per their logic, intelligence and common sense to avoid hell that is harmful to them.
Which God? There have been so many. Your stance totally falls apart because you can't state why any one God has precedent over another. Which god should we base our sense of justice on? That justice will be VERY different depending on which deity one chooses.
I choose to base all my objective morality on the deity Kalki.
Which God? There have been so many. Your stance totally falls apart because you can't state why any one God has precedent over another. Which god should we base our sense of justice on? That justice will be VERY different depending on which deity one chooses.
I choose to base all my objective morality on the deity Kalki.
This is a VERY, VERY good question.
It all starts from within a person when he feels that he needs God in his life, and he needs Guidance from the God. (If a person does not feel the need of God and his guidance in life, then its a fruitless endeavor no matter how hard you try to convince him).
Which God? is the question.
There is a method to it.
1 - First, you will ask a prayer in your own words, something along the lines of, "O'God, if you are out there, show me the right path and help me find you".
2 - You will start your quest by forming a criteria that a "God" of a certain religion your heard of, or you decide to know more about - will be primarily judged/ranked/understood (whichever word you wanna use) - by his message to humanity thru his book!
3 - You start studying that particular book that claims to be God's message, with an open mind/no pre-conceived bias, and you periodically ask yourself a question, (and this the most important part) "Is this the truth?"
4 - And let your heart honestly and bravely answer the question.
This simple method will pretty much help you draw a clear picture of what your heart is looking for. You will use your intelligence, honesty and bravery to stand with, what you believe is the truth. There is no compulsion in religion.
Worst case scenario - You start following a false God.
And lets say, after your death you find that Yes there is a God but not the one you believed in, then you STILL have a better chance of attaining God's mercy when you say, "O'God, at least I tried to find you" - instead of saying, "I never believed in you".
So you think that for the crime of not believing in god, = the punishment of eternal hellfire is perfectly reasonable? And you call this 'justice'? You don't think that is a bit over the top as a punishment? In other words believe in me - or else! It's a choice! Except not really. LOL
What happened to post #93 that you seemed to think was reasonable at the time?
I suppose god can do what he likes though right? Not for us to question gods irrationality and ridiculous over the top punishment. Really, come on GoCardinals do you think if there really was a god he'd be so self absorbed and needy? Why would he give a toss whether humans believed in him or not?
See, you start off with the wrong foot when you think that God deals with humans on "Do it or else" basis.
God says,
Do this, and get this.
Do that, and get that.
Your choice based on free will.
If denying God potentially lands one in hell for eternity, then believing in God also potentially books you spot in heaven forever; however, you conveniently ignore the underline part, and fall for "Do it or else" trap setup by the non-believers to deceive themselves only
To me, it's a fair game. Everyone has a chance to make the call based on free will. There is a reward and there is a failure. Make your call.
This is an 80 odd years life - half of which is spent in sleeping - about quarter of the rest is spent in child hood - about another quarter is spent in old age - so the actual test time is very, very short.
Yes, we were sent to this world without being asked, Yes, we are locked into this life by God, but since we are here, lets deal with it - it's only wise to do so.
For a believer its a short test. For a non-believer, it's perhaps a long destination-less journey. (IMO)
Last edited by GoCardinals; 05-26-2015 at 11:02 PM..
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Just joshing with you Albert. I find the incongruity in the typical Christian thinking about Hell to be quite an enigma. It is a strong indicator of the power of early indoctrination into a concept . . . even one as monstrous as Hell..
