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In my teens, I was probably as "real" as any Christian you could find. I should add that I grew up in a largely non-religious household, and it was I who sought out Christ. Before long, I found myself a believer, and I was someone who was deeply concerned about the fate of my soul. I stopped going to church, but I was still a pretty devout believer until my first year of college, when I started taking biology courses and something just kinda clicked. It wasn't that it in any way disproved the existence of God - I don't think science does that. But what it did do was to offer an alternative explanation for my existence, and that explanation seems valid to this day. I still believe in God, but I don't consider myself a Christian anymore - haven't for more than two decades. Even so, many aspects of Christian teachings appeal to me. I tend to regard it as fine examples of early moral philosophy.
I respect the private and individual faith that a person has. I have friends from different religions and different denominations within them. The problem I always have with religion in order for it to actually "work", a person has to deny the alternative explanation. Belief in religious doctrine requires that a person shut down the critical thinking parts of our mind, and I just don't understand it for a bit. Science and spirituality don't have to be in competition with each other. I think that spirituality can adapt to the science that helps us explain our Universe. Unfortunately, the way religion works, it's what we otherwise refer to as reality that has to adjust. I just can't accept that. And that's why it's sometimes hard for me to conceal my bitterness toward religion. Religious folk are always talking about their rights - sorry, but nobody has the right to deny education and enlightenment. Those aren't even rights; they're responsibilities that we all have individually.
They were never Christian. The word says clearly if they left us, they were never of us. But they try to argue their case. Yeah right! A Christian is someone that has accepted the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their sins because they chose to go to Heaven! Not someone who attends church functions and had bible meetings for half of their life. That means absolutely NOTHING if they never accepted the blood of Christ!
And so you were never human, since you left us. and Sinners were never Sinners, if they left Sin. and Atheists were never atheists if they left atheism, and Muslims were never Muslims, if they left Islam. And Scotsmen were never Scottish, if they left Scotland.
Dear NoCapo, please read Romans chapter 4 concerning Abraham and how later in that chapter Paul used Abraham's experience of just believing God and using it to reinforce our experience of believing God concerning Christ:
Romans 4:22-25 Wherefore, also, it is reckoned to him for righteousness." (23) Now it was not written
because of him only, that it is reckoned to him, (24) but because of us also, to whom it is about to be
reckoned, who are believing on Him Who rouses Jesus our Lord from among the dead." (25) Who was given
up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying."
God doesn't require us to go to Bible college or seminary to unravel what actually took place in Christ dying for us. It is so simple. He just asks that we believe Him concerning Christ dying for our sins and offenses, was entombed and rose from the dead. If one believes God concerning this, they are righteous.
God doesn't require us to join a church first, or clean up our act, do so many push-ups etc. The foundation, the beginning point is believing God like Abraham believed God.
It takes faith to believe God concerning Christ dying for us, being entombed and roused again out of death.
Many people are told if they just make Jesus Lord of their lives they will be saved.
Or they are told if they just accept Jesus into their heart they will be saved.
Or they are told if they just repent of their sins and will live for Jesus they will be saved.
None of the three points above would even save a gnat. Churches are filled with these kind of pagan "Christians."
Just believing God? Isn't that what a heart-felt feeling would be?
Yet its more like just believing anti-agnostic lies, mistakes, and misconceptions. It takes Faith to believe any lie or claim at all with any sort of false sense of certainty. I certainly have Great Faith even now, and stronger than yours, of course. Needless to say, the prove would be in the pudding, because through discussions I would use my natural stubbornness and backed up surety to never become a Mormon nor a Catholic, nor whatever unbacked religion you might posses. I always learn and grow though, hopefully others do so as well, instead of letting their stubborness (I mean "Faith") keep them from growing and learning and leaving childish misconceptions behind.
Wouldn't Satan ask you "just to believe" him too? such a silly religion that would be founded upon "simply believing," it would have to offer up a lot of valuable promises without perceived greater drawbacks to make people sell themselves so short.
In a nutshell. Grew up a "Christian." Went to church. Always wanted a personal relationship with Jesus. Prayed and prayed and prayed as a little girl into adulthood. Felt something too. Continued my "relationship" with Jesus right into the Charismatic, Jesus Freak 70s. Spoke in tongues, went to bible studies, prayer meetings, church, fasted, prayed, read my bible almost non stop. Went to bible school with my husband after we married years and years ago. Worked for a still famous televangelist who still hobnobs with the likes of Jerry Savelle, Fredrick K.C. Price, Joyce Meyer, John O'Steen, Charles Capps and Norvelle Hayes. Went to Crazy Robert Tilton's church in Dallas. Went street witnessing in the Black Muslim polytechnic area of Ft. Worth. Totally and unequivocally immersed in this way of life. Did NOTHING without praying about it. Knew the bible backwards and forward. Stood on the "word." Prayed without ceasing. In tongues. All the time. Witnessed. Part of a street ministry that went every Saturday night down to the worst parts of Dallas/Ft. Worth and talked to hookers and walked into the middle of drug deals going down. Brought home drug addicts to help them find their way to the Lord. Took in the homeless and downtrodden. Looking back it was a wonder we weren't murdered in our sleep. Talked to people in bus stations who were in "cults." You know the ones, they wore sheets and were barefooted. Prayed for the sick. Went to nursing homes and hospitals to pray for people to be healed and to walk again. Went to church every time the doors were opened. Walked the floor, claiming healing when sick. Walked the floor, claiming whatever, all the time. Spoke the "word" constantly. Let God know I had faith and was serious.
So yeah, been there and done just about everything that anyone could think of, except raise the dead.
Didn't work. None of it. It was a one-way relationship. Yeah, some good things happened in my life. But yeah, lots of good things are still happening in my life since I no longer am a Christian. Some of those good things are no guilt, no more worrying about not praying or fasting enough, or reading the bible enough or going to hell. Nope, none of those things. I FINALLY, after half a century, am at peace with myself and the bible God had not a thing to do with it.
So yeah, I was definitely a Christian.
Well you do not get saved by works such as praying constantly, going to church, following the ten commandments, being baptised and living a moral and respectable way of life.
It is through grace that we are saved through Jesus Christ. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
One can go to church all their life and not be a Christian. They can be religious and know the bible back to front. Yet claiming to be a Christian according to the Bible will not ensure the person will enter heaven.
Well you do not get saved by works such as praying constantly, going to church, following the ten commandments, being baptised and living a moral and respectable way of life.
Of course, everyone in this thread knows that portion of doctrine, we have all been there. But If I describe to you what I believed, you say it was empty belief, if I tell you what I felt, you say it was untrustworthy emotion, if I tell you what action resulted from that belief, you tell be that works won't save.
Essentially you are taking grace and making it into a works salvation. You are saved by grace, if you believe. But, you have to believe hard enough, and you have to believe the right thing, and you have to describe it in my pet key phrases, and if that still doesn't seem to work then you just believed incorrectly, somehow you did it wrong. When we give you a resume of our "Chrisitan qualifications" it is not because when we were believer we thought that was what saved us, those were the outward manifestations of our inner change. If we simply saqid that we trusted in Christs death, we would be accused of having an empty belief.
The bottom line is that most of us godless in this thread at least were as "saved" as you or anyone in your church. We felt the "inward witness of the Holy Spirit", we deeply desired to seek after God and become like Christ, and yws we placed out trust and faith that God, in his grace, would save us through the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. We believed.
In my teens, I was probably as "real" as any Christian you could find. I should add that I grew up in a largely non-religious household, and it was I who sought out Christ. Before long, I found myself a believer, and I was someone who was deeply concerned about the fate of my soul. I stopped going to church, but I was still a pretty devout believer until my first year of college, when I started taking biology courses and something just kinda clicked. It wasn't that it in any way disproved the existence of God - I don't think science does that. But what it did do was to offer an alternative explanation for my existence, and that explanation seems valid to this day. I still believe in God, but I don't consider myself a Christian anymore - haven't for more than two decades. Even so, many aspects of Christian teachings appeal to me. I tend to regard it as fine examples of early moral philosophy.
I respect the private and individual faith that a person has. I have friends from different religions and different denominations within them. The problem I always have with religion in order for it to actually "work", a person has to deny the alternative explanation. Belief in religious doctrine requires that a person shut down the critical thinking parts of our mind, and I just don't understand it for a bit. Science and spirituality don't have to be in competition with each other. I think that spirituality can adapt to the science that helps us explain our Universe. Unfortunately, the way religion works, it's what we otherwise refer to as reality that has to adjust. I just can't accept that. And that's why it's sometimes hard for me to conceal my bitterness toward religion. Religious folk are always talking about their rights - sorry, but nobody has the right to deny education and enlightenment. Those aren't even rights; they're responsibilities that we all have individually.
Thenks chickenfriedbananas for your perspective.
It is not that a Christian "has to deny the alternative explanation." It is just that there is no actual, undeniable evidence for evolution. Just as there is no absolute, undeniable evidence for God creating mankind other than ancient documents which carry more weight with me, considering the Source, over high priests of evolution who use comics to try to convince people that single celled amoebas got together and figured out all the animals and even created all the plants on earth. Really? Yep, they actually believe that. Them thar high priests is pretty slick talkers tho I gotta admit. They think we is so dum.
Well you do not get saved by works such as praying constantly, going to church, following the ten commandments, being baptised and living a moral and respectable way of life.
It is through grace that we are saved through Jesus Christ. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
One can go to church all their life and not be a Christian. They can be religious and know the bible back to front. Yet claiming to be a Christian according to the Bible will not ensure the person will enter heaven.
Of course, everyone in this thread knows that portion of doctrine, we have all been there. But If I describe to you what I believed, you say it was empty belief, if I tell you what I felt, you say it was untrustworthy emotion, if I tell you what action resulted from that belief, you tell be that works won't save.
Essentially you are taking grace and making it into a works salvation. You are saved by grace, if you believe. But, you have to believe hard enough, and you have to believe the right thing, and you have to describe it in my pet key phrases, and if that still doesn't seem to work then you just believed incorrectly, somehow you did it wrong. When we give you a resume of our "Chrisitan qualifications" it is not because when we were believer we thought that was what saved us, those were the outward manifestations of our inner change. If we simply saqid that we trusted in Christs death, we would be accused of having an empty belief.
The bottom line is that most of us godless in this thread at least were as "saved" as you or anyone in your church. We felt the "inward witness of the Holy Spirit", we deeply desired to seek after God and become like Christ, and yws we placed out trust and faith that God, in his grace, would save us through the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. We believed.
Now, we don't.
-NoCapo
Faith is not works. Grace is not works.
Yes, to be a true Christian, if you believe God that Christ died for your sins, was entombed and God roused Him from the dead you are considered righteous by God and are saved (see the end of Romans 4 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). It is not how hard one sweats to believe it that it turns into works. God gives the grace and faith to believe in the first place so we can't boast about even believing.
If you ever did believe God concerning Christ, you are still saved for age-during life to come. You are sealed with the spirit of promise for the day of deliverance even if you are an atheist now.
I was born into a religious family. Sometime around 7th grade I started to question it. By high school I had abandoned it because I logically concluded that it was not real.
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