You left Christianity to be Atheist or Agnostic? (Revelations, Catholic, Christians)

[NoCapo]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

It is obvious you and I don't share the same view about God and the bible.

That is my point. What you are selling is compelling to you because you have already bought into it.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Are you dying?

Of course. We all are from the moment we are born. While a great many want to believe otherwise, the best evidence we have is that we are born, we live, and then we die and cease to be.

Death is not a condition to be saved from. It is an essential part of life, in the same way the end is a part of a story. We of course don't want a premature death, we don't want our loved ones to die, but life without death turns our moment on the stage of life into an endless monotony. I am not afraid of dying, the finite is not disquieting to me. Rather, knowing that life is short, and when it is done it is over makes me more conscious of leaving my mark on the world, of saying my few lines with courage and conviction and really participating in this grand drama of life.

-NoCapo

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

And just how does God saving all mankind "defeat the whole premise of Jesus dying in the first place"?

Simple, it departs from the premise that I need to be reconciled with crap I do not adhere to or care about in the first place. If the jesus dying for our sins was supposed to fix the problems pertaining to humanity, he did a poor job as since the "fix", nothing really changed did it? This applies to UR and ET alike. You are still required to work your ass off saving yourself, neither doctrine accepts that a simple catechism or sinner's prayer will suffice. You have to enter into servitude (to other men) to prove your worth.

With both doctrines, someone like me that did the whole 9 yards of catechism and rebirth bits and still came to my senses STILL provides a conundrum of epic proportions to the theist. This is where folk like you and others infer folk like me were reeeeeeeally not true believers. This and some vague self apologetic bible verses allows both camps to shoot their wounded and give both an excuse to ignore the logical questions posed as to your beliefs.

What you are saying is like: I have a hundred thousand dollar bill I can't pay. So my dad paid it for me. He may as well not have worked a day in his life to earn that money since my bill was paid for by him. Do you see how rediculous your idea is?

Not my idea, this is what is posited by some UR camps.

If Jesus didn't die for our sins no one could be saved. Since He did die for all of mankind's sins, since He did ransom all mankind, all mankind must therefor be saved (just not all at the same time).

Saved from what exactly? UR's hell still will have folk ticked off at the lawd and were any of this remotely true, I would sarcastically state, "Sooo jesus, that cross thingy actually was a waste of time, thanks for nothing dude". Of course, UR belief suggests more than ET that we have a mind wipe and become mindless drones which again defeats the whole idea of redemption through works.

Actually, that is not the case where you state "UR is no better than that offered by the evangelicals. It is way better.

Not really, UR still has hell albeit temporary.

Why is it not better than the evangelicals for one to go through a judgment, be interred for a while and then be brought back to reconciliation with God? How is that no better than the evangelical understanding which is that one goes through a judgment, but is interred for eternity never to be reconciled to God? If YOU were the one going through a judgment, which would you choose: The UR way or the evangelical outcome? And don't say you wouldn't choose either. Let's not play games here.

Neither as it all meadow muffins. Your version of hell is no different to the ET folk, just the duration. Both assume we need to be saved to spend eternity with gawd, what about our imaginary free will?

The UR folk have to jump through more mental hoops to get their doctrine to work

There are Universal Reconciliationists who are Armenianistic and Calvinistic. I'm neither since I don't like labels. I believe (without the tag of Calvinism) that God chooses specific individuals to be believing. But I don't know why you say there is no cleansing process. 1Co 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire."

So somehow you are supa speshall? That sounds like elect to me and fwiw is calvinism's premise.

He is God. He is allowed to do with His that which He desires.

Ever heard of the fallacy of special pleading?

Lucky for us He is love and all the fruits of the spirit. It actually makes redemption as a valuable thing since it reconciles all who are at enmity to God. People like you look at what He does with a microscope rather than seeing the whole picture.

Of course I look with a microscope, there is no big picture as none of you lot can agree on the doctrine of UR either

Not the Universal Reconciliation I believe in. Maybe the Universalist/Unitarian church is a stepping stone from atheism. You using ignorant tactics like this does not help your case. Universal Reconciliation puts God in a proper light where He loves all mankind and has done everything to ensure their well being in the future.

It may work in your alternate reality. The idea of your salvation is still gonna tick off a hindu or a muslim were it real.

You don't really know me or many of my friends who believe in UR so why succumb to the ad hominum crap?

So little you know bud, I ran Tentmaker forums as Admin for close to two years. Ask the UR folk here if they knew me back then.

It is not that "they need something" but they see that there just IS something in which God has said He will bring all mankind to account for what they say and do, teach them the lessons they need and bring them into reconciliation. Yet you find that abhorrent. Interesting.

I find it stupid as mainstream xian belief. You are both in the same boat as far as I am concerned, all of you base your beliefs on myths. You have to ignore contrary evidence and need to believe in a literal genesis and fludd "or else, none of it is true" (your own words)

Just where in the bible did Jesus make up stories other than the parables?

So when jesus apparently answered the question of multiple marriages and who would be her husband, his answer was supposed to be a parable? Not the way it is written mate.

23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?[b] God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

Pretty much a non answer no? No idea why they were astonished. Talk about not really addressing the question.

Angels are sexless yet the OT speaks of nephilim and these had sex with the daughters of men and produced giants. It seems, just like jesus, you also do not know the scriptures.

I suppose I have not cited enough "context" to make my case?

You also avoided the question as to why golden bejewelled mansions in a place where no commerce takes place or where privacy is of no consequence seeing the naughty bits are now removed in the resurrected body.

Like everything in the bible, it is as clear as mud.

The way "paradise" is alluded to in the bible, it certainly is NOT a place I wish to find myself in and knowing my nature, I will have to be kicked out as I would be quizzing gawd all the time for an answer that makes sense (in light of scriptures).

The SDA folk at least have annihilation which is fine by me as I will not be aware I am no more. That is as scary as what it was like before I was born... Oh wait, I have no idea what that was like now do I?

[Eusebius]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
And just how does God saving all mankind "defeat the whole premise of Jesus dying in the first place"?

Seeker replied:
Simple, it departs from the premise that I need to be reconciled with crap I do not adhere to or care about in the first place. If the jesus dying for our sins was supposed to fix the problems pertaining to humanity, he did a poor job as since the "fix", nothing really changed did it? This applies to UR and ET alike. You are still required to work your ass off saving yourself, neither doctrine accepts that a simple catechism or sinner's prayer will suffice. You have to enter into servitude (to other men) to prove your worth.

With both doctrines, someone like me that did the whole 9 yards of catechism and rebirth bits and still came to my senses STILL provides a conundrum of epic proportions to the theist. This is where folk like you and others infer folk like me were reeeeeeeally not true believers. This and some vague self apologetic bible verses allows both camps to shoot their wounded and give both an excuse to ignore the logical questions posed as to your beliefs.

Dear Seeker,
Where did I ever state you were never a believer to begin with? You just love making unfounded claims and shoot from the hip, don't you?

Just because YOU don't think you need to be reconciled does not "defeat the whole premise of Jesus dying in the first place." God is going to reconcile you even if you don't, at this point in time in your life, think you need reconciled. God is not going to reconcile only those who believe they need reconciled. He will reconcile all who are at enmity to Him. Since you fulfill the enmity part, He will reconcile you.

And where in the Bible does it state God has to save all mankind instantly and reconcile the entire universe instantly upon Christ's death, burial and resurrection? God promised a Saviour thousands of years before the Saviour came. God promised the saving of all mankind thousands of years before it will also come to fruition whether you believe it or not. It has nothing to do with whether you or anyone believe it. It has everything to do with with Him believing it. The Bible says He is faithful even if we are unfaithful.

Originally Posted by SeekerSA
The problem with the doctrine of UR is that it is no better than that offered by the evangelicals. The UR hell is not eternal so their premise is that folk will have temporary hell hiatus and then be rescued to appear "spotless" in the presence of the lawd. That pretty much defeats the whole premise of jesus dying in the first place, it is Armenianism where you have to work your own salvation which is of course the idea of mainstream xianity; works. UR Calvinism takes the idea that these few so called enlightened folk are selected to avoid this "cleansing" process.
:
Eusebius replied:
What you are saying is like: I have a hundred thousand dollar bill I can't pay. So my dad paid it for me. He may as well not have worked a day in his life to earn that money since my bill was paid for by him. Do you see how rediculous your idea is?

Seeker replied:
Not my idea, this is what is posited by some UR camps.

Your reply does nothing to get you out of your dilemma of what you originally stated above. I don't believe in Armenianism. I also don't believe in any current idea called "Hell." There is Sheol and Hades (the grave), Gehenna (a trash dump) and Tartarus (caverns) and Lake of Fire (which the bible says is "death." These all must be temporary for God will save all mankind.

Eusebius wrote:

If Jesus didn't die for our sins no one could be saved. Since He did die for all of mankind's sins, since He did ransom all mankind, all mankind must therefor be saved (just not all at the same time).

Seeker replied:
Saved from what exactly? UR's hell still will have folk ticked off at the lawd and were any of this remotely true, I would sarcastically state, "Sooo jesus, that cross thingy actually was a waste of time, thanks for nothing dude". Of course, UR belief suggests more than ET that we have a mind wipe and become mindless drones which again defeats the whole idea of redemption through works.

Eusebius' reply:
Saved from sin and death and enmity to God. I don't have a "UR hell." You really don't know what I believe. The cross Jesus endured was not a waste of time and no, it won't have "folk ticked off." Just because you think it will does not prove it will.
Do I really believe God is going to do a "mind wipe" and turn people into mindless drones? Where are your facts for this statement? Just more shooting from the hip on your part.
Quote:

Eusebius wrote:
Actually, that is not the case where you state "UR is no better than that offered by the evangelicals. It is way better.

Seeker replied:
Not really, UR still has hell albeit temporary.

Eusebius replies:
Again you don't know what I believe. I don't have a "hell."

Eusebius wrote:
Why is it not better than the evangelicals for one to go through a judgment, be interred for a while and then be brought back to reconciliation with God? How is that no better than the evangelical understanding which is that one goes through a judgment, but is interred for eternity never to be reconciled to God? If YOU were the one going through a judgment, which would you choose: The UR way or the evangelical outcome? And don't say you wouldn't choose either. Let's not play games here.

Seeker replied:
Neither as it all meadow muffins. Your version of hell is no different to the ET folk, just the duration. Both assume we need to be saved to spend eternity with gawd, what about our imaginary free will?

The UR folk have to jump through more mental hoops to get their doctrine to work

Again, you really don't know what I believe so why make statements out of your own ignorance? Don't you think it would be better to see what I believe first than to make unfounded claims as to what I believe? It makes you look ignorant to make such claims. Here, I will capitalize this: I DON'T BELIEVE IN A HELL. Get that? So how can, as you state I have a "version of hell no different to the ET folk"? Try to memorize it and try not to make the same mistake over and over again.
I don't need to jump through any mental hoops. I just take the Scriptures for what they say.
We don't have free wills. We have wills which are at enmity to God and don't want to seek God. God seeks us and saves us.

Eusebius wrote:
There are Universal Reconciliationists who are Armenianistic and Calvinistic. I'm neither since I don't like labels. I believe (without the tag of Calvinism) that God chooses specific individuals to be believing. But I don't know why you say there is no cleansing process. 1Co 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire."

Seeker's reply:
So somehow you are supa speshall? That sounds like elect to me and fwiw is calvinism's premise.

I'm not Calvinist. I'm a believer. If the Bible says God chooses certain individuals to be believing, and that is what the Scriptures state, I can believe it without being a Calvinist. Just because God saves specific individuals now does not prove He will not save all later.

He is God. He is allowed to do with His that which He desires.

Seeker replied:
Ever heard of the fallacy of special pleading?

Yes, I have. Have you?
Quote:

Eusebius wrote:
Lucky for us He is love and all the fruits of the spirit. It actually makes redemption as a valuable thing since it reconciles all who are at enmity to God. People like you look at what He does with a microscope rather than seeing the whole picture.

Seeker replied:
Of course I look with a microscope, there is no big picture as none of you lot can agree on the doctrine of UR either

We all agree on God saving all. It is just other scriptural matters outside the realm of God saving all we don't all agree on.
Quote:

Eusebius wrote:
seekersa said universalism is a stepping stone to atheism. I replied:
Not the Universal Reconciliation I believe in. Maybe the Universalist/Unitarian church is a stepping stone from atheism. You using ignorant tactics like this does not help your case. Universal Reconciliation puts God in a proper light where He loves all mankind and has done everything to ensure their well being in the future.

It may work in your alternate reality. The idea of your salvation is still gonna tick off a hindu or a muslim were it real.

No it won't. Ever hear of special pleading?
Quote:

Eusebius wrote:
You don't really know me or many of my friends who believe in UR so why succumb to the ad hominum crap?

Seeker replied:
So little you know bud, I ran Tentmaker forums as Admin for close to two years. Ask the UR folk here if they knew me back then.

So you were a Tentmaker mod. You still don't know me or what I believe. Do you think I believe everything the Tentmaker folk do? If so, where is your proof? And please, don't have an immature comeback like your other comebacks earlier.
Quote:

Eusebius wrote:
It is not that "they need something" but they see that there just IS something in which God has said He will bring all mankind to account for what they say and do, teach them the lessons they need and bring them into reconciliation. Yet you find that abhorrent. Interesting.

I find it stupid as mainstream xian belief. You are both in the same boat as far as I am concerned, all of you base your beliefs on myths. You have to ignore contrary evidence and need to believe in a literal genesis and fludd "or else, none of it is true" (your own words)

Just because you find it stupid does not mean it will not come to pass. It just proves you find it stupid.
I don't have to believe in a literal genesis "flood" (your resorting to puerile spelling reveals your immaturity) to believe God will save all mankind.
Quote:

Eusebius replied:
Just where in the bible did Jesus make up stories other than the parables?

Seeker replied:
So when jesus apparently answered the question of multiple marriages and who would be her husband, his answer was supposed to be a parable? Not the way it is written mate.

23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?[b] God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

Pretty much a non answer no? No idea why they were astonished. Talk about not really addressing the question.

Angels are sexless yet the OT speaks of nephilim and these had sex with the daughters of men and produced giants. It seems, just like jesus, you also do not know the scriptures.

I suppose I have not cited enough "context" to make my case?

That is not a story Jesus made up. I asked you to prove your point that Jesus made up stories. Jesus did answer them. They asked Him whose wife the wife would be in the resurrection who was married to x number of men. Jesus said in the resurrection they are neither marrying nor given in marriage, so she would be no man's wife. They were astonished because He answered with true wisdom and truth.

You also avoided the question as to why golden bejewelled mansions in a place where no commerce takes place or where privacy is of no consequence seeing the naughty bits are now removed in the resurrected body.

Why do you think Christians will live in bejeweled mansions and that these mansions will be in a place where no commerce takes place? Please provide scriptures.

Like everything in the bible, it is as clear as mud.

The way "paradise" is alluded to in the bible, it certainly is NOT a place I wish to find myself in and knowing my nature, I will have to be kicked out as I would be quizzing gawd all the time for an answer that makes sense (in light of scriptures).

The SDA folk at least have annihilation which is fine by me as I will not be aware I am no more. That is as scary as what it was like before I was born... Oh wait, I have no idea what that was like now do I?

What you want and what will take place are two entirely different things altogether. Your desires do not annul the Scriptures. God is going to save you whether you like it or not. Of course you will like it after He saves you. It is just now you are operating in a fog and don't really know what He has in store for you. It's all good.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Dear Seeker,
Where did I ever state you were never a believer to begin with? You just love making unfounded claims and shoot from the hip, don't you?

That' a hoot, coming from you.

Just because YOU don't think you need to be reconciled does not "defeat the whole premise of Jesus dying in the first place." God is going to reconcile you even if you don't, at this point in time in your life, think you need reconciled. God is not going to reconcile only those who believe they need reconciled. He will reconcile all who are at enmity to Him. Since you fulfill the enmity part, He will reconcile you.

I think Seekeris looking at the whole rationale of the UR/ET UR with a purgatory idea. What he thinks is not under discussion.

And where in the Bible does it state God has to save all mankind instantly and reconcile the entire universe instantly upon Christ's death, burial and resurrection? God promised a Saviour thousands of years before the Saviour came. God promised the saving of all mankind thousands of years before it will also come to fruition whether you believe it or not. It has nothing to do with whether you or anyone believe it. It has everything to do with with Him believing it. The Bible says He is faithful even if we are unfaithful.

Nowhere, nor does it state what is going to happen to them after the sinners are tossed into the fire. YOU are the one who denies that this means hell and eventually everyone is going to be reconciled. Where in the Bible does it say that?

Your reply does nothing to get you out of your dilemma of what you originally stated above. I don't believe in Armenianism. I also don't believe in any current idea called "Hell." There is Sheol and Hades (the grave), Gehenna (a trash dump) and Tartarus (caverns) and Lake of Fire (which the bible says is "death." These all must be temporary for God will save all mankind.

I'll leave the rest to SeekerSA, -if he wants to deal with it.

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Dear Seeker,
Where did I ever state you were never a believer to begin with? You just love making unfounded claims and shoot from the hip, don't you?

The few times I engage you, you should know that this discourse in most cases I generalise, you do fit the model as has been seen in a plethora of other posts.

Just because YOU don't think you need to be reconciled does not "defeat the whole premise of Jesus dying in the first place." God is going to reconcile you even if you don't, at this point in time in your life, think you need reconciled. God is not going to reconcile only those who believe they need reconciled. He will reconcile all who are at enmity to Him. Since you fulfill the enmity part, He will reconcile you.

So I have no choice in the matter? I think you assume far too much. If what you posit were correct, gawd will have no option to get rid of me as I will be a real pain in the ass. Applying my logic will defeat him and make him look stupid, kinda like the lucifer myth, I will not make good heavenly company and would probably lead a revolt.

And where in the Bible does it state God has to save all mankind instantly and reconcile the entire universe instantly upon Christ's death, burial and resurrection? God promised a Saviour thousands of years before the Saviour came. God promised the saving of all mankind thousands of years before it will also come to fruition whether you believe it or not. It has nothing to do with whether you or anyone believe it. It has everything to do with with Him believing it. The Bible says He is faithful even if we are unfaithful.

Rubbish, this whole idea is fabricated and sadly you still drink from the fount of Koolaide. Applying the ad populum fallacy, the majority of folk do not believe they require redemption, why should I be any different?

Your reply does nothing to get you out of your dilemma of what you originally stated above. I don't believe in Armenianism. I also don't believe in any current idea called "Hell." There is Sheol and Hades (the grave), Gehenna (a trash dump) and Tartarus (caverns) and Lake of Fire (which the bible says is "death." These all must be temporary for God will save all mankind.

Why "must" it be temporary? I agree with your correct translations but still the UR folk require some sort of "hell" aka refiner's fire (an ET doctrine anyway) to be properly saved.

Eusebius' reply:
Saved from sin and death and enmity to God. I don't have a "UR hell." You really don't know what I believe. The cross Jesus endured was not a waste of time and no, it won't have "folk ticked off." Just because you think it will does not prove it will.

What sin? Is death that frightening to you that you need a placebo to make you sleep better at night?

Do I really believe God is going to do a "mind wipe" and turn people into mindless drones? Where are your facts for this statement? Just more shooting from the hip on your part.

The mind wipe is part of the ET doctrine but taking the temporary hell (refiner's fire) it is ess the same crap. I get burned just a bit to teach me a lesson and then appear submissive and a mindless zombie bowing the knee. Do you really think a rational mind can accept this?

Quote:
Eusebius replies:
Again you don't know what I believe. I don't have a "hell."

Yes you do. The verse you cited is what refiner's fire is based on.

Again, you really don't know what I believe so why make statements out of your own ignorance? Don't you think it would be better to see what I believe first than to make unfounded claims as to what I believe? It makes you look ignorant to make such claims. Here, I will capitalize this: I DON'T BELIEVE IN A HELL. Get that? So how can, as you state I have a "version of hell no different to the ET folk"? Try to memorize it and try not to make the same mistake over and over again.

No it is not the same hell as the ET folk but no one simply walks in to UR heaven as-is. There is a cleansing process required no? Hmm lemme see what you said earlier

I don't need to jump through any mental hoops. I just take the Scriptures for what they say.

Yes you do, we have seen that over and over here multiple times. I have told you before your make a real crappy apologist. Even I was far more skilled than you currently are. And I was anyway wrong.

We don't have free wills. We have wills which are at enmity to God and don't want to seek God. God seeks us and saves us.

Poof goes the idea of freewill, we may as well live it up, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die/

I'm not Calvinist. I'm a believer. If the Bible says God chooses certain individuals to be believing, and that is what the Scriptures state, I can believe it without being a Calvinist. Just because God saves specific individuals now does not prove He will not save all later.

Calvinism infers a speshall calling and thusly you have inferred you are "elect" so why deny you are a UR calvinist?

Quote:
We all agree on God saving all. It is just other scriptural matters outside the realm of God saving all we don't all agree on.

I do not agree with anything you have to say doctrinally wise

Quote:
No it won't. Ever hear of special pleading?

You need to look up special pleading. Muslims and Hindus have entirely different concepts of an afterlife.

Quote:
So you were a Tentmaker mod.

Not a mod, I ran the show for Gary A as he did not do forums.

You still don't know me or what I believe. Do you think I believe everything the Tentmaker folk do? If so, where is your proof? And please, don't have an immature comeback like your other comebacks earlier.

I met all the different strains of UR on Tentmaker and the late Ray's site. The camps are many and you fit snugly into the calvinist camp.

Quote:
Just because you find it stupid does not mean it will not come to pass. It just proves you find it stupid.

It will not come to pass and I will stake real money on that.

I don't have to believe in a literal genesis "flood" (your resorting to puerile spelling reveals your immaturity) to believe God will save all mankind.

You stated in the ark thread if Geneis is not real, then the rest of the bible is irrelevant. We all know what you have said and there are only about 4 posters here that support a literal flood, even if it is regional but again, that aspect is b/c you and I both know, the jesus myth cites the flood as a real event

Quote:
That is not a story Jesus made up. I asked you to prove your point that Jesus made up stories. Jesus did answer them. They asked Him whose wife the wife would be in the resurrection who was married to x number of men. Jesus said in the resurrection they are neither marrying nor given in marriage, so she would be no man's wife. They were astonished because He answered with true wisdom and truth.

That is a made up story. He did not answer the question AT ALL. It was a huge deflection and a made up answer. That conundrum still exists today with folk that have been married multiple times. For me, that is over 30 women I have "known" in the biblical sense, some of them including my one and only wife are dead. Who gets to greet me when I pass?

Why do you think Christians will live in bejeweled mansions and that these mansions will be in a place where no commerce takes place? Please provide scriptures.

Revelation, read your bible.

What you want and what will take place are two entirely different things altogether. Your desires do not annul the Scriptures. God is going to save you whether you like it or not. Of course you will like it after He saves you. It is just now you are operating in a fog and don't really know what He has in store for you. It's all good.

No mate. I have no expectations. When I die that is it, tickets, fade to black and eternal sleep. Whether I like it or not, gawd really does not want me in heaven as I am gonna create a ruckus worse than the rebellion. Of course I am speaking on your acumen level and I know that there is nothing to anticipate when I am no more.

For some reason, it appears you need to have a belief in and afterlife and you have embraced the UR version of heaven, it still sucks.

Think of it this way. The US decides that the entire world population should be US citizens, finds a way to make it so. The last thing I want to be is a US citizen. There is no way in hell I would choose to live there or abide their stupid laws.

Your idea of redemption is exactly this analogy.

I live in a country, screwed up as it may be, is still leaps and bounds ahead of the USA where religious beliefs are kept private for the most part. here I can work and live as an atheist w/o fear of reprisal. I can state my unbelief w/o the fear of being fired as we do have a constitution that would put a business out of business with lawsuits if that ever transpired. I hear too many testimonies of folk having to hide their atheism in the US.

I think you get the drift and the analogy. No?

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Eusebius
Dear Seeker,
Where did I ever state you were never a believer to begin with? You just love making unfounded claims and shoot from the hip, don't you?

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

That' a hoot, coming from you.

Dear Arequipa, Thanks for your input.
I don't believe Seeker was never a believer to begin with. I don't know if he was ever a believer to begin with. It is not up to me to decide who is a believer or not. The unfounded claims is concerning claims he was making which were untrue about my beliefs.

I think Seekeris looking at the whole rationale of the UR/ET UR with a purgatory idea. What he thinks is not under discussion.

What he thinks is under discussion. He said my "hell" was no different from those who believe in Eternal Torment. I don't believe in any "hell." I believe there is Sheol & Hades (both the grave), Gehenna (a trash dump in which no one suffers [only dead bodies are cast therin]), Tartarus which are caverns, and the Lake of fire which the Bible says is death. Death is the absence of life. There is no torment in death. ETers think those are "hell". I don't. Therefore Seeker's claim is false about me. I don't believe in purgatory. I don't believe the lake of fire is God as some Tentmakers believe. I don't believe the lake of fire makes people fit for God's presence as some Tentmakerites believe.

And where in the Bible does it state God has to save all mankind instantly and reconcile the entire universe instantly upon Christ's death, burial and resurrection? God promised a Saviour thousands of years before the Saviour came. God promised the saving of all mankind thousands of years before it will also come to fruition whether you believe it or not. It has nothing to do with whether you or anyone believe it. It has everything to do with with Him believing it. The Bible says He is faithful even if we are unfaithful.

Nowhere, nor does it state what is going to happen to them after the sinners are tossed into the fire. YOU are the one who denies that this means hell and eventually everyone is going to be reconciled. Where in the Bible does it say that?

Of course the Bible says what is going to happen after people are cast into the lake of fire which is death. First it states the duration is only for the eons of the eons or "ages of the ages." There are only two more eons/ages to come after this one ends.

Paul, the apostle, saw beyond John's revelation. In Revelation Christ is still reigning, there are still sovereignties, powers and authorities and death is still present. In 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 Paul sees the end of Christ reigning, the abolishment of all powers, authorities and sovereignties and the ending of the last enemy: death. When death is abolished all those people will come forth and God will be "All in all."

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

The few times I engage you, you should know that this discourse in most cases I generalise, you do fit the model as has been seen in a plethora of other posts.

No I don't.

So I have no choice in the matter? I think you assume far too much. If what you posit were correct, gawd will have no option to get rid of me as I will be a real pain in the ass. Applying my logic will defeat him and make him look stupid, kinda like the lucifer myth, I will not make good heavenly company and would probably lead a revolt.

You will be a changed person.

Rubbish, this whole idea is fabricated and sadly you still drink from the fount of Koolaide. Applying the ad populum fallacy, the majority of folk do not believe they require redemption, why should I be any different?

It just goes to prove that using a fallacy such as ad populum does not help your case. If there were not one person in the world that believed God, God is not bound by what people do not believe. It is really too late. Christ has already ransomed all mankind whether they believe it or not and based on that "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1 Tim.2:4-6).

Why "must" it be temporary? I agree with your correct translations but still the UR folk require some sort of "hell" aka refiner's fire (an ET doctrine anyway) to be properly saved.

The refiners fire was for Israel. It had to do with Israel being in Egypt 400+ years. They were said to be in an iron furnace and God refined them through that figurative fire of hardship and slavery.

What sin? Is death that frightening to you that you need a placebo to make you sleep better at night?

I look forward to having immortality and incorruption. I don't like dying. I want to live. You can drink the atheist Koolaide all you want but you will still be saved eventually.

The mind wipe is part of the ET doctrine but taking the temporary hell (refiner's fire) it is ess the same crap. I get burned just a bit to teach me a lesson and then appear submissive and a mindless zombie bowing the knee. Do you really think a rational mind can accept this?

I don't believe what you just stated above.

Yes you do. The verse you cited is what refiner's fire is based on.

Actually, I do not.

No it is not the same hell as the ET folk but no one simply walks in to UR heaven as-is. There is a cleansing process required no? Hmm lemme see what you said earlier

No, that is not what I believe.

Yes you do, we have seen that over and over here multiple times. I have told you before your make a real crappy apologist. Even I was far more skilled than you currently are. And I was anyway wrong.

Yes you were anyway wrong about me being a crappy apologist.

Poof goes the idea of freewill, we may as well live it up, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die/

Yep, may as well because salvation is not based on what you do or do not do. Christ already ransomed you. One who is ransomed must be freed. It just takes time. As God quoted the Rolling Stones "Time is on My side, Yes it it!" You didn't know God likes listening to the Rolling Stones?

Calvinism infers a speshall calling and thusly you have inferred you are "elect" so why deny you are a UR calvinist?

I am not a UR calvinist. I am not a UR 7th Day Adventist. I am not a UR Arminian. I am not a UR Baptist/Lutheran/Catholic or any other.

I do not agree with anything you have to say doctrinally wise

Doesn't matter. You will still be saved.

You need to look up special pleading. Muslims and Hindus have entirely different concepts of an afterlife.

Doesn't matter, they will still be saved.

Not a mod, I ran the show for Gary A as he did not do forums.

Sorry to hear that. I used to post over there. There were quite a lot of strange ideas from people who supposedly hear directly from God. I couldn't take their special revelations so left.

I met all the different strains of UR on Tentmaker and the late Ray's site. The camps are many and you fit snugly into the calvinist camp.

I understand. But no, I'm not Calvinist. Keep trying to label me though . . . the labels don't stick.

It will not come to pass and I will stake real money on that.

Too late. Christ already ransomed you.

You stated in the ark thread if Geneis is not real, then the rest of the bible is irrelevant. We all know what you have said and there are only about 4 posters here that support a literal flood, even if it is regional but again, that aspect is b/c you and I both know, the jesus myth cites the flood as a real event

I said Jesus said Noah built an ark and the world perished in the flood. If Jesus lied, we cannot believe any of the Bible.

That is a made up story. He did not answer the question AT ALL. It was a huge deflection and a made up answer. That conundrum still exists today with folk that have been married multiple times. For me, that is over 30 women I have "known" in the biblical sense, some of them including my one and only wife are dead. Who gets to greet me when I pass?

Of course He answerd their question.

No mate. I have no expectations. When I die that is it, tickets, fade to black and eternal sleep. Whether I like it or not, gawd really does not want me in heaven as I am gonna create a ruckus worse than the rebellion. Of course I am speaking on your acumen level and I know that there is nothing to anticipate when I am no more.

God's expectations trump your no expectations.

For some reason, it appears you need to have a belief in and afterlife and you have embraced the UR version of heaven, it still sucks.

I think it would benefit everyone if they believed we all have to answer to God and that God will save all mankind. What do you know of my UR version of Heaven? Care to elucidate on that? I doubt you really know. Just more shooting from the hip. Let us all here know what I believe about the UR version of Heaven, shall we? Come now, surely you know.

Think of it this way. The US decides that the entire world population should be US citizens, finds a way to make it so. The last thing I want to be is a US citizen. There is no way in hell I would choose to live there or abide their stupid laws.

Your idea of redemption is exactly this analogy.

Not really. My analogy is that the country everyone lives in SUCKS DONKEY TURDS. They have been so conditioned to donkey turds they think they are not bad at all. What God is going to do is take them out of their donkey turdean world and resurrect them, give them immortality and incorruption and all the the fruits of the spirit.

I live in a country, screwed up as it may be, is still leaps and bounds ahead of the USA where religious beliefs are kept private for the most part. here I can work and live as an atheist w/o fear of reprisal. I can state my unbelief w/o the fear of being fired as we do have a constitution that would put a business out of business with lawsuits if that ever transpired. I hear too many testimonies of folk having to hide their atheism in the US.

I think you get the drift and the analogy. No?

And how is God's goal to save all mankind, give them immortality and incorruption like a country you suggest above?

[perry335654]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

You left Christianity to be Atheist or Agnostic?

I am just curious why you think you were Christian? Was it because you started going to a church or several churches, got baptized, gave tithes, attended all the functions?

What made you a Christian?

Good question

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Dear Arequipa, Thanks for your input.
I don't believe Seeker was never a believer to begin with. I don't know if he was ever a believer to begin with. It is not up to me to decide who is a believer or not. The unfounded claims is concerning claims he was making which were untrue about my beliefs.

What he thinks is under discussion. He said my "hell" was no different from those who believe in Eternal Torment. I don't believe in any "hell." I believe there is Sheol & Hades (both the grave), Gehenna (a trash dump in which no one suffers [only dead bodies are cast therin]), Tartarus which are caverns, and the Lake of fire which the Bible says is death. Death is the absence of life. There is no torment in death. ETers think those are "hell". I don't. Therefore Seeker's claim is false about me. I don't believe in purgatory. I don't believe the lake of fire is God as some Tentmakers believe. I don't believe the lake of fire makes people fit for God's presence as some Tentmakerites believe.

Of course the Bible says what is going to happen after people are cast into the lake of fire which is death. First it states the duration is only for the eons of the eons or "ages of the ages." There are only two more eons/ages to come after this one ends.

Paul, the apostle, saw beyond John's revelation. In Revelation Christ is still reigning, there are still sovereignties, powers and authorities and death is still present. In 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 Paul sees the end of Christ reigning, the abolishment of all powers, authorities and sovereignties and the ending of the last enemy: death. When death is abolished all those people will come forth and God will be "All in all."

Ok. What I was curious about was whether you believed in Eternal torment (you don't) or some kind or purging temporary torment before going onto heaven. It looks as though you don't believe that either. I gather that you do believe that to be a Christian one has to believe in the resurrection as described in the Gospels.

So what I would ask is, what it gets us if you do, and what we lose if we don't.

[NoCapo]

Originally Posted by perry335654

Good question

And did you find the answers enlightening?

-NoCapo