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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 201 39.72%
No 256 50.59%
Unsure 49 9.68%
Voters: 506. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-27-2022, 02:40 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,855,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidt1 View Post
There is widespread concern about Russia's false false flag operation in which they accuse Ukraine of using a dirty bomb. Everyone knows by now that this is how Russian terrorists operate.

They will accuse Ukraine of the things they have done or will do. The concern here is what will Russian terrorists do that's even more horrible than the killing of civilians and destruction Ukraine's infrastructures.

That makes no sense at all. Twisted SBU logic. Just like with the attacks on the NPP. But the international observers are there, they know the truth.
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Old 10-27-2022, 02:45 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,855,958 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Its sort of funny, you can see the pro Russian folks posting here, and not a lot of pushback. They probably assume they're winning the forum discussion on it. What they haven't seemed to realize that most folks have seen what Russia is doing, and they simply arent finding your arguments worth discussing.

Russia invaded a neighboring country that surrendered its nuclear weapons and received promises that their borders would be respect. thats it. Full stop. hardly anyone buys the "nazi" nonsense, so now they've fallen back on "satanists" instead. Just stop. The nonsense is just that. nonsense.

Ukraine will have NATO and US support until the end of the war. And unlike Russia everyone else is facing reality. This is war. If that means Russia is so lost to reality that they nuke everyone because they arent allowed to take over their neighbor, then guess what? The world is going to fight back. If Russia escalates things thinking they will do their usual "lets scare everyone" nonsense? Guess what? Its not going to work anymore. Everyones tired of it and smacking Russia down for it.

That's like news from a parallel universe.
Only Ukraine is desperate enough to need to use terrorist methods including dirty bombs.

Ukraine gave up Russian nukes, Russia was in full control of the nukes sitting on Ukrainian territory. They were useless to Ukraine. Ukraine gave up something useless.
And it was not Russia who violated the Budapest memorandum first because that included more provisions than just nukes for sovereignty.
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Old 10-27-2022, 02:47 PM
 
4,951 posts, read 3,117,516 times
Reputation: 6754
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
If Russia escalates things thinking they will do their usual "lets scare everyone" nonsense? Guess what? Its not going to work anymore. Everyones tired of it and smacking Russia down for it.
He doesn't seem to be indicating any escalation,

"Despite his repeated veiled references to Russia's nuclear arsenal in recent months, Putin said he has no intention of using such a weapon in Ukraine: “There is no point in that, neither political, nor military,” he said. The Russian leader also said the world order the West imposed since the Soviet Union's collapse is "coming to an end," according to a transcript by The Telegraph."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12Wfq8ACmrk
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Old 10-27-2022, 02:57 PM
 
8,991 posts, read 11,878,098 times
Reputation: 10904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbiz1 View Post
He doesn't seem to be indicating any escalation,

"Despite his repeated veiled references to Russia's nuclear arsenal in recent months, Putin said he has no intention of using such a weapon in Ukraine: “There is no point in that, neither political, nor military,” he said. The Russian leader also said the world order the West imposed since the Soviet Union's collapse is "coming to an end," according to a transcript by The Telegraph."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12Wfq8ACmrk
Like in February when he said it was it just an exercise and Russia was not going to attack Ukraine?

Or when Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 in which Russia promised to respect the borders and sovereignty of Ukraine but invaded Crimea and the Donbas regions in 2014?

Never trust Putin.
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Old 10-27-2022, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Durham NC
5,304 posts, read 3,875,119 times
Reputation: 3818
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Its sort of funny, you can see the pro Russian folks posting here, and not a lot of pushback. They probably assume they're winning the forum discussion on it. What they haven't seemed to realize that most folks have seen what Russia is doing, and they simply arent finding your arguments worth discussing.

Russia invaded a neighboring country that surrendered its nuclear weapons and received promises that their borders would be respect. thats it. Full stop. hardly anyone buys the "nazi" nonsense, so now they've fallen back on "satanists" instead. Just stop. The nonsense is just that. nonsense.

Ukraine will have NATO and US support until the end of the war. And unlike Russia everyone else is facing reality. This is war. If that means Russia is so lost to reality that they nuke everyone because they arent allowed to take over their neighbor, then guess what? The world is going to fight back. If Russia escalates things thinking they will do their usual "lets scare everyone" nonsense? Guess what? Its not going to work anymore. Everyones tired of it and smacking Russia down for it.


Those nukes in Ukraine never belonged to Ukraine in the first place. The only ones talking about nukes is the West. It's called transference. Twist what Putin said and the Western propaganda goes to work on the gullible public.
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Old 10-27-2022, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
7,825 posts, read 2,759,302 times
Reputation: 3388
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Its sort of funny, you can see the pro Russian folks posting here, and not a lot of pushback. They probably assume they're winning the forum discussion on it. What they haven't seemed to realize that most folks have seen what Russia is doing, and they simply arent finding your arguments worth discussing.

Russia invaded a neighboring country that surrendered its nuclear weapons and received promises that their borders would be respect. thats it. Full stop. hardly anyone buys the "nazi" nonsense, so now they've fallen back on "satanists" instead. Just stop. The nonsense is just that. nonsense.

Ukraine will have NATO and US support until the end of the war. And unlike Russia everyone else is facing reality. This is war. If that means Russia is so lost to reality that they nuke everyone because they arent allowed to take over their neighbor, then guess what? The world is going to fight back. If Russia escalates things thinking they will do their usual "lets scare everyone" nonsense? Guess what? Its not going to work anymore. Everyones tired of it and smacking Russia down for it.
Good accurate summation
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Old 10-27-2022, 03:15 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,855,958 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidt1 View Post
Like in February when he said it was it just an exercise and Russia was not going to attack Ukraine?

Or when Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 in which Russia promised to respect the borders and sovereignty of Ukraine but invaded Crimea and the Donbas regions in 2014?

Never trust Putin.

He said Russia had no plans to attack.

Ukraine itself annexed then independent Crimea in 1995 with the help of a military coup in Crimea. Interestingly, the West never mentions that little fact.
Russia did not invade the Donbass at all. There were only a few mercenaries, but no Russian troops. A lot of Ukrainian troops switched to the Donbass side, which is also why the Donbass had so many arms. They didn't come from Russia.

Ukraine also promised to respect the Russian speaking minority, and broke its promise.

There is a detailed Dutch article on various aspects, including the Budapest Memorandum:

https://geopolitiekincontext.wordpre...g-in-oekraine/

Quote:
Ukraine became independent six months after Crimea, after the latter declared its sovereignty on September 4, 1991. On 26 February 1992, the Crimean Parliament proclaimed the 'Republic of Crimea'. This was done with the consent of the Ukrainian government, which gave it the status of a self-governed republic. On May 5, 1992, Crimea declared its independence and adopted a constitution. The city of Sevastopol, which in the communist system was directly administered by Moscow, had a similar situation, after it was integrated with Ukraine in 1991, averse to any legality. The following years were marked by tug-of-war between Simferopol and Kiev, which wanted to control Crimea.

With the signing of the Budapest Memorandum in 1994, Ukraine renounced the nuclear weapons of the former USSR that had remained on its territory, in exchange for "its security, independence and territorial integrity". At this stage, Crimea no longer considered itself de jure part of Ukraine and therefore not involved in this treaty. For its part, the government in Kiev felt strengthened by the memorandum. That is why Kiev abolished the Constitution of Crimea on its own authority on 17 March 1995. It sent troops to overthrow Yuri Mechkov, president of Crimea, and de facto annexed the Republic of Crimea. That led to street protests aimed at annexing Crimea with Russia. An event that the Western media hardly mentions.

Crimea was then ruled in an authoritarian manner by Kiev presidential decrees. This situation led the Crimean Parliament to draft a new constitution in October 1995 that restored the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. The new constitution was ratified by the Crimean Parliament on 21 October 1998 and confirmed by the Ukrainian Parliament on 23 December 1998. These events and the concerns of the Russian-speaking minority led to a friendship treaty between Ukraine and Russia on 31 May 1997. In the treaty, Ukraine included the principle of the inviolability of borders, in exchange – mind you – for a guarantee of "the protection of the ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious originality of the national minorities".

The kiev regime that came to power after the coup of February 23, 2014, had absolutely no constitutional basis. The unelected government repealed the Kivalov-Kolesnichenko Law of 2012 on official languages and thus no longer respected the guarantee of the friendship treaty with Russia of 1997. The people of Crimea then took to the streets to demand the "return" to Russia it had acquired 30 years earlier.
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Old 10-27-2022, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Canada
7,705 posts, read 5,593,619 times
Reputation: 8835
Ukrainian trench art:

https://twitter.com/ukraine_world/st...08324653125632

.
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Old 10-27-2022, 03:46 PM
 
13,011 posts, read 13,133,135 times
Reputation: 21920
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Its sort of funny, you can see the pro Russian folks posting here, and not a lot of pushback. They probably assume they're winning the forum discussion on it. What they haven't seemed to realize that most folks have seen what Russia is doing, and they simply arent finding your arguments worth discussing.

Russia invaded a neighboring country that surrendered its nuclear weapons and received promises that their borders would be respect. thats it. Full stop. hardly anyone buys the "nazi" nonsense, so now they've fallen back on "satanists" instead. Just stop. The nonsense is just that. nonsense.

Ukraine will have NATO and US support until the end of the war. And unlike Russia everyone else is facing reality. This is war. If that means Russia is so lost to reality that they nuke everyone because they arent allowed to take over their neighbor, then guess what? The world is going to fight back. If Russia escalates things thinking they will do their usual "lets scare everyone" nonsense? Guess what? Its not going to work anymore. Everyones tired of it and smacking Russia down for it.
I have to agree with all of this.
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Old 10-27-2022, 03:48 PM
 
13,011 posts, read 13,133,135 times
Reputation: 21920
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancers View Post
Those nukes in Ukraine never belonged to Ukraine in the first place. The only ones talking about nukes is the West. It's called transference. Twist what Putin said and the Western propaganda goes to work on the gullible public.
The nukes didn’t belong to Russia either. They technically belonged to the USSR, which no longer exists. The post dissolution negotiations involved giving the to Russia in exchange for guarantees of Ukrainiannterritorial sovereignty.

To be fair, Russia should transfer them back to Ukraine.
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