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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 198 39.52%
No 254 50.70%
Unsure 49 9.78%
Voters: 501. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-01-2023, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,848 posts, read 8,248,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adhom View Post
First of all, if NATO decided to attack Russia, how does it become WW3? Also, NATO has enough troops to fully defeat Russia without mobilization. Russia knows this. This is why Russia does not dare harm a single target in NATO.
Because Russia's allies would swoop in to save Russia if it was poised to fall. Russia is essentially a Chinese proxy. Russia would not have invaded without Chinese support.
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Old 08-01-2023, 03:29 PM
 
5,226 posts, read 3,162,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
That's close to what I think is going to happen.

Russian arlords will fight over the carcass, with China scooping up what it can grab.
I was being sarcastic when I used the term laugh fest. If Russia falls, NATO and China will trip over themselves to secure the Russian nuclear weapons stockpiles and it’s anyone’s guess as to what will happen to the SLBMs. Add the lesser powers in the mix and you will have WWIII. It will make what is currently going on in Ukraine seem like a Baptist picnic.
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Old 08-01-2023, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Oregon Coast
15,576 posts, read 9,246,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Because Russia's allies would swoop in to save Russia if it was poised to fall. Russia is essentially a Chinese proxy. Russia would not have invaded without Chinese support.
What allies? Russia has no allies other then Belarus. And even Belarus is not showing a willingness to get involved in this war, or they would have already done it.
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Old 08-01-2023, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Lake County, IL
754 posts, read 507,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Because Russia's allies would swoop in to save Russia if it was poised to fall. Russia is essentially a Chinese proxy. Russia would not have invaded without Chinese support.
Define "fall" first of all. Nobody is looking to invade and conquer Russia now, only to get it back inside it's own borders. A war with NATO would be the same thing.
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Old 08-01-2023, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
30,847 posts, read 19,473,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by double6's View Post
Trump just said he would suspend all aid to Ukraine if elected..you see, he fancies himself as a strong dictator just like his old pal Putin..
Great, that would end the war right there!
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Old 08-01-2023, 06:27 PM
 
34,289 posts, read 19,452,400 times
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I think ATACKMS may be approved soon. Which seems like a odd statement given how strongly Biden has been about not providing them. However....

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...e_missile.html

This is the PRSM missile, the ATACMS replacement. The fact that they see a need to accelerate delivery indicates to me that it indicates they are seeing a need for it sooner. Thus-I think we will supply ATACMS. The only other option would be us supplying PRSM, which would be a huge escalation-Ukraine would remove most of Russias navy with them if they're targeting abilities live up to claims. So im thinking ATACMS.
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Old 08-01-2023, 06:27 PM
 
8,187 posts, read 3,746,262 times
Reputation: 2760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudy Dayz View Post
Yes, there is no historical data to show that any country let alone Russia will commit mass suicide just because they are facing military defeat. In the end they always give up. The Japanese were a hundred times more radicalized to fight to the last man in WW2. But when the US demonstrated that we had the capability and were prepared to make that happen, they surrendered and accepted defeat. Russia today, is a joke compared to the Empire of Japan in WW2. As has been demonstrated repeatedly in this war, the Russians don't hesitate to turn and run away. They don't want to die. The Russians don't even care about winning this war. They are just looking at it as an easy opportunity to gain some more territory and show how great Russia is. Which is proving to not be as easy as they anticipated. The death toll is probably already way higher then they would like. They are not going to escalate the war with nuclear weapons. Even the Russian troops who are risking their own lives to fight in this war, don't want to see their entire families and their communities destroyed. Who would want that? No one. It's not human nature.

The nuclear threat from Russia is nothing but FUD.
Apparently RAND disagrees with you but hey what do they know, right.

They don't want to die? Who does?

They can very well escalate (non-strategically) under the premise that NATO is not going to risk MAD. Basically same
logic you are using. Remember we are discussing the very hypothetical scenario of "full defeat".

Regardless, I don't think any reasonable person would want to test any of this.

Not sure what your Japan example does in this context.
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Old 08-01-2023, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
7,825 posts, read 2,752,135 times
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ISW Update 8/1/23

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...-august-1-2023

Quote:
Aug 1, 2023 - Press ISW

The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) accused Ukraine of attempting to attack two Black Sea Fleet patrol boats with unmanned semi-submersibles on August 1. The Russian MoD initially claimed that Ukraine launched three unmanned boats at the “Sergey Kotov” and “Vasily Bykov” Project 22160 large patrol ships in the southwestern part of the Black Sea, about 340km southwest of Sevastopol. The Russian MoD later clarified that the patrol ships were escorting Russian civilian transport ships en route to the Bosphorus Strait via the Black Sea and claimed that the patrol ships detected and destroyed all three semi-submersibles. Russian authorities may be amplifying claims of Ukrainian attacks to frame Ukraine as irresponsibly threatening civilian ships in the Black Sea, thereby setting conditions to further escalate naval activity and consolidate control in the Black Sea, though there is no indication that Ukrainian attacks on Russian military targets have threatened civilian vessels. Geolocated images posted on July 31 show the installation of anti-naval drone barriers in Sevastopol Bay, likely as part of the overall Russian effort to increase naval and defensive posturing in the Black Sea.
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Old 08-01-2023, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Port Charlotte FL
4,963 posts, read 2,740,316 times
Reputation: 7761
Denys update...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUVUiNY0x38
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Old 08-01-2023, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,889 posts, read 9,641,019 times
Reputation: 23210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudy Dayz View Post
What allies? Russia has no allies other then Belarus.
Now you're just being obtuse.

China, Iran, and North Korea are all allies of Russia. China will do whatever it takes to prevent refugees on their border, see North Korea.

Central Asian countries are also allies with Russia
Quote:
The Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO)[note 2] is an intergovernmental military alliance in Eurasia consisting of six post-Soviet states: Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, and Tajikistan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collec...y_Organization

So yes, Russia does have allies.
Quote:
China agreed to secretly arm Russia, leaked Pentagon documents reveal
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...%20been%20sent.

Quote:
Iran prepares to send 1,000 weapons including missiles, drones to Russia: Report
https://english.alarabiya.net/News/m...-Russia-Report

Quote:
Russia to offer food for North Korean weapons - US
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65131117
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