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The Group of Seven (G7) Coalition and NATO signed agreements to offer Ukraine long-term security commitments during the NATO Summit in Vilnius on July 12. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg announced that NATO has agreed on a three-part package that will give Ukraine a multi-year program of practical assistance, create a NATO-Ukrainian coordination council, and commits NATO to allow Ukraine to join the alliance without going through a Membership Action Plan (MAP). G7 members Germany, Japan, France, Canada, Italy, Britain, and the United States signed a general framework document called the “Joint Declaration of Support for Ukraine” aimed at offering the Ukraine military, financial, and intelligence support and stated that each member of the G7 will enter into bilateral security negotiations with Ukraine regarding the document. Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida stated that other countries would have the opportunity to join the declaration at a later stage. The general framework document also reportedly promises immediate steps to swiftly provide Ukraine with all necessary support in the event of a new attack but did not specify what that support would look like. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky stated that the agreements reached at the NATO summit mean that Ukraine would receive formal security guarantees, although neither the NATO nor the G7 agreements currently provide such guarantees. Ukraine did secure notable agreements that will strengthen long-term Western support for Ukraine at the NATO summit, and these agreements will likely serve as the framework for potential increases in Western security assistance to Ukraine.
4. More than two million Vietnamese civilians died.
I was responding to Rocko, not you.
I'm not asserting that Ukraine did or did not use cluster munitions on civilian population centers in 2014. Maybe they did. But we all know they will be used on Russian trenches now.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary to avoid a million US servicemen and untold numbers of Japanese to die. Dresden wouldn't be necessary now with our precision munitions, but we didn't have those then.
We gave the Vietnamese sanctuary in North Vietnam and most of the war in Cambodia and Laos. For long periods we didn't bomb North Vietnam. It was a really, really stupid way to fight a war and meant that it couldn't be won.
As General Sherman said, war is hell. What he did to Georgia was not a war crime in 1864. But technology and standards have changed.
I'm not asserting that Ukraine did or did not use cluster munitions on civilian population centers in 2014. Maybe they did. But we all know they will be used on Russian trenches now.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary to avoid a million US servicemen and untold numbers of Japanese to die. Dresden wouldn't be necessary now with our precision munitions, but we didn't have those then.
We gave the Vietnamese sanctuary in North Vietnam and most of the war in Cambodia and Laos. For long periods we didn't bomb North Vietnam. It was a really, really stupid way to fight a war and meant that it couldn't be won.
As General Sherman said, war is hell. What he did to Georgia was not a war crime in 1864. But technology and standards have changed.
It has been established, so no need for the "maybe". I think they will be used all over.
No, they were going to surrender. But has been discussed already.
In regards to Dresden and many similar , It's a "no", again.
" But the potentially damning counterpoint to all of these technical justifications is that Bomber Harris was explicitly interested in terror as an objective in itself. He and other Allied strategists were frustrated by the relative failures of precision bombing raids and advocated massive area bombardments to kill civilians and shatter the enemy’s will. Harris was completely open and unashamed about this, and was actually impatient about other military bigwigs mincing their words about the ferocity of their attacks.
‘The aim of Bomber Command should be unambiguously and publicly stated,’ Harris wrote. ‘That aim is the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany.’ As far as Harris was concerned, the Allies had not to just to ‘kill Boche’ but also ‘terrify Boche’."
In regards to Vietnam, I already said what I wanted to say
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary to avoid a million US servicemen and untold numbers of Japanese to die.
Do you actually believe we would have made an amphibious invasion of Tokyo? Do you actually believe nukes are the reason Japan surrendered?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Dresden wouldn't be necessary now with our precision munitions, but we didn't have those then.
Rofl, German cities were intentionally firebombed. Same with Tokyo. The belief was that civilians supported the war effort, directly or indirectly, and were thus valid military targets.
Allright.
Let's do it. I'm easy.
Sweden is NOT accepted to NATO. Sweden is given OK by Erdogan to be accepted to NATO. Get the difference? How long does it take to, actually, have all the formalities legalized? Also, if it burns one more Q'Ran, Erdogan, who already lost any face among his Islamic neighbors, will be FORCED to stop that OR be ostracized. And, as in deep s-thole Turkey is now, he can't afford that.
That is cleared.
Infamous F16s MAY arrive in SIX months. MAY. With no infrastructure for their maintenance and poorly trained pilots. Old, way outdated planes. Russian Sushki will have lots of fun with them. But, let me ask this. Where will be Russian forces in six months? Kyiv? Ternopil?
That is cleared.
As of the "many more weapon systems" please read my post above. Old tanks and borrowed old munition? Oh c'mon, Mister. That's not even immature, it's naïve at the best.
I'll be nice:
▪️It seems that the West will make up for the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine as far as possible: now they are losing Leopard 2 tanks, and the weaker Leopard 1 will be supplied, because even in Germany there are no extra tanks. For other weapons, they will supply what is in the warehouses - new ones, as I understand it, will no longer be supplied.
▪️French missiles are similar to British ones, we shoot them down by dozens, routine work is going on. There are not so many of them in British warehouses, so we decided to use French warehouses.
▪️Western media are already writing that it takes years to replenish stocks of NATO warehouses. If you throw everything away now, what to do in six months? They are trying to solve a complex problem.
It took Turkey parliament 2 weeks to approve Finland. I suspect similar timetable will happen with Sweden. Plus Turkey wants that F16 and they are not getting if Sweden doesn't get approved.
6 months is enough to train Ukraine pilots to high enough standard to deal with Russia. Ukrainian pilots already demonstrated high skills in learning ability to operate western tanks.
In 6 months Russian forces will be much closer to Russia and not the other way. You seem to forget how far Russia been pushed back and continue to be pushed back.
No idea where you're getting the fact that Ukraine getting old equipment from and that Russia is able to produce new equipment at fast pace. Last time i checked, Russia is using T54 tanks as they are running low on their modern tanks. Also where is T14 tank?
1) If defeat is imminent, coming to an agreement with the West would be the best option to protect your business and your life. It's why Italy infamously changes sides nearly every major war. They want to be on the winning side.
2) Haven't you ever heard of war-profiteering? Corruption is neither theft nor embezzlement.
3) Everyone is selfish. It is human nature. Even the people who are seemingly benevolent are driven by selfishness. Either because it feels good, or because they want to go to heaven. The only thing that tempers our selfishness is love(eg love for family). But love is never unlimited. You cannot love the whole world.
And while governments have often tried to expand our love for our families into a love of country, at best we tolerate our governments because our families live here and because we don't perceive a viable alternative. The question as it relates to Ukraine/Russia is what are your countries actually fighting for? And how much are you willing to sacrifice to get it?
My view on Ukraine is that they are almost wholly driven by money. They blame Russia for them not being rich, and they believe that joining the EU means they'll become rich overnight. And while their anger towards Russia is real, if the EU told Ukraine point-blank that they will never join the EU, the war would end overnight because the dream of future prosperity(money) would evaporate. The only reason Ukraine wants to join the EU is for money, and the only reason the EU wants Ukraine to join is for resources and to weaken its geopolitical rival. It is not because Ukraine is white, or Christian, or has European values, or any other excuse.
Basically, Ukrainians aren't driven by a love of country(who could possibly love Ukraine?), they're driven by a love for themselves. The war is a means to that selfish end. Which is also why Ukraine wants to invade Crimea even though everyone there hates them. They want to control the Black Sea and all the natural resources because it means more money.
In any case, since the Ukrainians/Russians are driven by self-interest, if you want to carry out a coup, or a revolution, or whatever, you only need to appeal to their self-interest(give them a better alternative). Which would be even more attractive if material conditions became intolerable.
PS: There are millions of Russians right now who do not support this war and who would gladly "surrender" all Ukrainian territory and become a dependency of Europe/America. Why? Because they believe they would benefit. And there would be millions more who would "switch sides" if things got bad enough. I realize you and Erasure imagine yourself Russian patriots, but don't assume everyone is like you. Most of your countrymen are traitors, as are mine.
Wrongo! If your mancrush Putin believed that Ukrainians are only money driven, Russia would have simply paid Ukraine off, handsomely. Putin could have funded every single Ukrainian from cradle to grave, and still Russia would come out ahead financially compared to what this war is costing it in terms of man and material alone, not even factoring in all the other loses Russia incurred with this invasion (where to even start with that?).
It took Turkey parliament 2 weeks to approve Finland. I suspect similar timetable will happen with Sweden. Plus Turkey wants that F16 and they are not getting if Sweden doesn't get approved.
6 months is enough to train Ukraine pilots to high enough standard to deal with Russia. Ukrainian pilots already demonstrated high skills in learning ability to operate western tanks.
In 6 months Russian forces will be much closer to Russia and not the other way. You seem to forget how far Russia been pushed back and continue to be pushed back.
No idea where you're getting the fact that Ukraine getting old equipment from and that Russia is able to produce new equipment at fast pace. Last time i checked, Russia is using T54 tanks as they are running low on their modern tanks. Also where is T14 tank?
Let's check in six months then. Fair enough?
Btw, your last paragraph is patently wrong. Patently. Rock solid. Also, you chose not to read my post in depth.
Re read your response. It's just so wrong and lopsided, I won't even care to elaborate on it anymore. Waste of time.
Tape of General released by a politician. He criticizes military leadership, including Shoigu and said he was fired over it.
This is correct, and that's why I mentioned that Putin had to tread very carefully with Prigozhin, because Putin can't be certain, how many people in the Russian Army ( and those around it, supporting its effort) are of the same mind as Prigozhin.
Unfortunately, no "polls" would give Putin an idea of what's going on in the country, because the system that he set in place himself, makes all polls rigged and unreliable.
I'm not asserting that Ukraine did or did not use cluster munitions on civilian population centers in 2014. Maybe they did. But we all know they will be used on Russian trenches now.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary to avoid a million US servicemen and untold numbers of Japanese to die. Dresden wouldn't be necessary now with our precision munitions, but we didn't have those then.
We gave the Vietnamese sanctuary in North Vietnam and most of the war in Cambodia and Laos. For long periods we didn't bomb North Vietnam. It was a really, really stupid way to fight a war and meant that it couldn't be won.
As General Sherman said, war is hell. What he did to Georgia was not a war crime in 1864. But technology and standards have changed.
The U.S. started bombing North Vietnam on August 5, 1964 after the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and continued bombing until Dec 29, 1972. There were periods of time that the U.S. ceased bombing North Vietnam but we dropped four times as many bombs on Southeast Asia than we dropped in WWII.
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