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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 201 39.88%
No 254 50.40%
Unsure 49 9.72%
Voters: 504. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-30-2022, 09:04 AM
 
13,011 posts, read 13,117,104 times
Reputation: 21915

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
That I show many Military and Political experts throughout the world that are like-minded...prove that you are wrong AGAIN when you claim it is only me that holds my view of this.
Military experts such as MacGregor, Black, Bakshi, Ritter, etc...and renowned academia's like John J. Mearsheimer.
Please provide your qualifications and expertise relative to theirs, that would indicate the superiority of your claims.
I can also cite experts and academicians. So what? I would than ask you to provide your personal qualification relative to theirs, you would not, and we would be no further. This is not a discussion between diplomatic and military experts, this is a discussion between a bunch of people on a silly forum.

I never said you were the only person who held this view. I said that your arguments were unconvincing, and they are. People lie about their reasons and arguments all the time. I don't presume to know what your real reasons are for supporting Russian aggression, but I would be shocked if you really, truly believed that by calling it a "special military operation" it differs in any substantive way from an invasion.
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Old 12-30-2022, 09:06 AM
 
13,011 posts, read 13,117,104 times
Reputation: 21915
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Duval View Post
Historically, Kiev is Russia. Ex-Soviets based in Russia. It is still major part of population, except, may be of Western Ukr.
You have this backwards. If you go back far enough, Russia is part of Kiev.

Does this mean you think that Putin should hand the keys to the Kremlin over the Zelensky?
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Old 12-30-2022, 09:07 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,688,902 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
Invade is the correct word.
I can tell you are all tweaked-out about it. Most unfortunate.
Some are overcome by deranged compulsions...even to cling to certain inconsequential words.
They have my sympathy...and I will keep them in my best thoughts.
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Old 12-30-2022, 09:09 AM
 
3,573 posts, read 1,193,368 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
20 years ago does not matter, we do not have time travel machines.

People paint the NATO alliance as aggressive, but it is not. The NATO alliance is a defensive alliance that only activates if a NATO member is attacked.

Russia had active trade with EU members, who are also NATO members. Relatively unrestricted travel, business, and education opportunities.

There was no reason to want NATO restricted, unless Russia wanted to invade potential NATO countries, which they obviously did and have recently done.

Russia is very clearly the aggressor here, and holds 100% of the responsibility.
It is cenfuries old Western operation to wipe out Russia.
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Old 12-30-2022, 09:12 AM
 
3,573 posts, read 1,193,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
You have this backwards. If you go back far enough, Russia is part of Kiev.

Does this mean you think that Putin should hand the keys to the Kremlin over the Zelensky?
May be. Maybe some remnants of Tsars family? May be just leave them alone?
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Old 12-30-2022, 09:12 AM
 
45,362 posts, read 26,624,629 times
Reputation: 25121
Two crap hole countries fighting over a border that’s been disputed for centuries. This is just a money laundering/redistribution scheme writ large. The US empire is collapsing and this regime is going to get all it can while the getting is still good.
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Old 12-30-2022, 09:16 AM
 
3,573 posts, read 1,193,368 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
You have this backwards. If you go back far enough, Russia is part of Kiev.

Does this mean you think that Putin should hand the keys to the Kremlin over the Zelensky?
You can say so, technically. Color revolution did not make Z-boy lawful choice of Ukr.
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Old 12-30-2022, 09:17 AM
 
5,222 posts, read 3,049,934 times
Reputation: 7022
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
I can tell you are all tweaked-out about it. Most unfortunate.
Some are overcome by deranged compulsions...even to cling to certain inconsequential words.
They have my sympathy...and I will keep them in my best thoughts.
And you with me and it would be nice if you got yourself a dictionary.
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Old 12-30-2022, 09:23 AM
 
13,011 posts, read 13,117,104 times
Reputation: 21915
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Duval View Post
It is cenfuries old Western operation to wipe out Russia.
If I state 20 years ago does not matter, why would you think that "centuries old" would be convincing to me?

Anyway, it is a silly argument. Nothing from centuries ago is consistent with today. Centuries ago Europe was plagued with constant warfare. Lines were drawn between Protestants and Catholics, with Jewish pogroms thrown in for good measure.

Italy and Germany did not exist as countries. Once Germany and Italy did exist they were the allies before WW1, then enemies during WW1, then allies for WW2, now they are allies within NATO.

The Habsburg dynasty ruled Austria-Hungary and Spain. The Pope had real political power.

England had colonies in North America. Some revolted, others separated from England peacefully.

Sweden used to be a major military power. France invaded everybody.

Ignoring all of those historical realities, and the fact that nations and alliances evolve over time to create a centuries long operation to destroy Russia is silly. Russia is a player in Eurasia, and they have been isolationist, agressive and defensive, as have most other countries. There is no long term illuminati-style plot here.
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Old 12-30-2022, 09:26 AM
 
23,175 posts, read 12,333,508 times
Reputation: 29355
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Working through negotiated Peace Agreements is not "surrendering".
It is when the agreement is one side gets everything they wanted.
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