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Actually I've posted a link showing a study done that shows that the actual cost of emergent care by uninsured were mostly WORKING American citizens that were uninsured.. for one.
Second.. to use your "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" .. I can say teh same back to you... because of the "illegal" population you want to tak away UHI for the rest of us American Citizens.. on the ARGUMENT that they too will get "free healthcare..(although UHI is NOT free.. as it's paid for by taxes!!!).. yet these people are ALREADY geting that "free" care because they either DONT WORK.. and are illegal or a combination of the both!
High cost is a COMBINATION of things.. and we may not be able to eliminate the illegal problem and the unemployed problem.. but there are many areas that UHI would "clean up" so to speak and SAVE money..
And again.. these people are already getting free healthcare ALONG with all the other problems the system has.. we can ATLEAST fix the other umpteen problems thereby lowering cost.. and the effect of the illegals and those not workign will NOT be as felt.
Well I was using a bit of hyperbole to make the point regarding getting rid of the aliens here now. As to them receiving "free" care....of course it's paid for by taxes.....that's the whole point. UHI would be one big, poorly managed gov't red tape machine that would be paid for by what....MORE TAXES.
BTW, I would love to hear specifics on what so-called UHI would "clean up", and how realistic and attainable cost savings could be achieved.
Actually I've posted a link showing a study done that shows that the actual cost of emergent care by uninsured were mostly WORKING American citizens that were uninsured.. for one.
Second.. to use your "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" .. I can say teh same back to you... because of the "illegal" population you want to tak away UHI for the rest of us American Citizens.. on the ARGUMENT that they too will get "free healthcare..(although UHI is NOT free.. as it's paid for by taxes!!!).. yet these people are ALREADY geting that "free" care because they either DONT WORK.. and are illegal or a combination of the both!
High cost is a COMBINATION of things.. and we may not be able to eliminate the illegal problem and the unemployed problem.. but there are many areas that UHI would "clean up" so to speak and SAVE money..
And again.. these people are already getting free healthcare ALONG with all the other problems the system has.. we can ATLEAST fix the other umpteen problems thereby lowering cost.. and the effect of the illegals and those not workign will NOT be as felt.
'UHI' would not clean up or save money in any way. Not even close.
Well I was using a bit of hyperbole to make the point regarding getting rid of the aliens here now. As to them receiving "free" care....of course it's paid for by taxes.....that's the whole point. UHI would be one big, poorly managed gov't red tape machine that would be paid for by what....MORE TAXES.
BTW, I would love to hear specifics on what so-called UHI would "clean up", and how realistic and attainable cost savings could be achieved.
Well then go back and read all my other posts.. and LINKS to all the facts and information I have provided.. I certainly do not want to keep repeating myself as I have onso many of the threads about this topic.
UHI would NOT be a big mess.. Actually it would FINALLY be a contribution in taxes that we would all actually REALLY benefit from and actually GET something back for what we contribute in taxes.
UHI would NOT be a big mess.. Actually it would FINALLY be a contribution in taxes that we would all actually REALLY benefit from and actually GET something back for what we contribute in taxes.
Can you provide a single example of anything of this scale that the government has ever done well and efficiently? Even the military, which does it job well, suffers from incredible waste and inefficiency. UHI would be massive in scope compared to the military, and the waste in the name of doing good would be mind boggling.
Well I was using a bit of hyperbole to make the point regarding getting rid of the aliens here now. As to them receiving "free" care....of course it's paid for by taxes.....that's the whole point. UHI would be one big, poorly managed gov't red tape machine that would be paid for by what....MORE TAXES.
BTW, I would love to hear specifics on what so-called UHI would "clean up", and how realistic and attainable cost savings could be achieved.
'UHI'
1. higher taxes
2. subpar coverage
3. govt controlling insurnace companies, if thats not bordering on socialism I dont know what is
4. Further backlog of a system that's already backlogged. You think people are waiting long now? You aint seen nothing yet.
5. Higher insurance premiums for those who keep there own insurance
6. Another govt. buearocracy
7. Give all the illegals free healthcare, think we have a problem now? Oh yeah this will get interesting.
First subtract the estimated 15-20 million illegals
also 20% of the uninsured are teeenagers who think they dont need it, as said by hillary clinton
then subtracts all the people who just dont want to pay for it
then subtract the people who are homeless by choice or laziness or just dont have a job because they're lazy
also don't forget all the prostitutes and drug dealers who dont have insurance because they dont wnat to be a part of society
also don't forget about the prisons, are they listed as 'having insurance?' if not there's a few million more.
then finally, whew you may get a little closer to the actual number, which in no way would warrant a socialist 'universal healthcare system.
Doesn't seem to me that this would affect the per capita cost very much. But maybe your numbers are different. France, with a per capita GDP that is only about 80% of ours, has a health care system that is pretty consistently ranked among the best in the developed world. Our health care system is pretty consistently ranked among the worst in the developed world. We pay on average nearly twice as much for health care as the French do. They get the best. We get the worst. Their system supports 3 doctors per thousand population. We have 1.1 per thousand. There is something wrong with this picture.
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Originally Posted by Greatday
B) The size of their countries (geographically) are much smaller
That's certainly true, but I don't think my health care costs here in the DC area are very much influenced by the existence of Seattle. You're grasping at immaterial straws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday
C) They established NHI BEFORE private insurance became readily available
No, that's not true. The health care system in France was entirely based on private mutual-aid societies before the process of creating a national system was begun in 1928. With most of the current system having come into being since 1960, France is often used as the model for an incremental move from a system based on private insurance to a nationalized system of universal coverage. Again, you are just throwing words onto the screen without connecting any of them to reality.
Finally, a sane comment... ALL of WESTERN countries provide, in one way or another, 100% coverage for their citizens, EXCEPT US.
In fact, i think the system will change once it gets to meltdown point...
Healthcare for profit WILL be slavery for middle class... as it gets more expensive every year people are squezeed more and more.
But, like everything else, HC is for profit business in the states.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
Doesn't seem to me that this would affect the per capita cost very much. But maybe your numbers are different. France, with a per capita GDP that is only about 80% of ours, has a health care system that is pretty consistently ranked among the best in the developed world. Our health care system is pretty consistently ranked among the worst in the developed world. We pay on average nearly twice as much for health care as the French do. They get the best. We get the worst. Their system supports 3 doctors per thousand population. We have 1.1 per thousand. There is something wrong with this picture.
That's certainly true, but I don't think my health care costs here in the DC area are very much influenced by the existence of Seattle. You're grasping at immaterial straws.
No, that's not true. The health care system in France was entirely based on private mutual-aid societies before the process of creating a national system was begun in 1928. With most of the current system having come into being since 1960, France is often used as the model for an incremental move from a system based on private insurance to a nationalized system of universal coverage. Again, you are just throwing words onto the screen without connecting any of them to reality.
Really? Including those that don't work? And those that get paid "under the table (as many do)?
Yes, really. As someone who is so bothered by taxes, you must be only too keenly aware of how difficult it is to avoid them. Do you think that illegals are just that much more clever than you are that they can escape taxation while you cannot? You buy something, you pay taxes. You live somewhere, you pay taxes. About 10% of the annual increase in the Social Security surplus (currently about $50 billion) is put there each year by illegal immigrants despite the fact that many of them at times work off the books, just as many legal residents do. And of course, if you're having payroll taxes deducted, you're having federal, state, and local income taxes withheld as well, just as if you were a fully documented worker. The idea that the simple lack of a green card somehow means that you don't pay taxes is a myth that only those who desperately want to believe it can take seriously.
Precisely the point... WAIT, there is a surplus? If so, why is the social system so weak?
In my books, taxes in US are EXCESSIVE. Considering i don't get **** for taxes, why do i pay them?
Bridges falling apart... no HI, no nothing. YET, corporate tax is practically 40%, WHICH is extreme by world standards.
All in all, in US, you aren't taxed really less than elsewhere, it is just neatly hidden... it's that you don't get anything for it.
Bribed politicians, corrupt federal governments etc. "swallow" it.
For example, sales tax is added when you buy, real estate tax-which doesn't exist at all in many countries can be quite high here.
All in all, in New York, i was taxed MORE than 40% of my earnings, sales tax is high, real estate is high...
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
Yes, really. As someone who is so bothered by taxes, you must be only too keenly aware of how difficult it is to avoid them. Do you think that illegals are just that much more clever than you are that they can escape taxation while you cannot? You buy something, you pay taxes. You live somewhere, you pay taxes. About 10% of the annual increase in the Social Security surplus (currently about $50 billion) is put there each year by illegal immigrants despite the fact that many of them at times work off the books, just as many legal residents do. And of course, if you're having payroll taxes deducted, you're having federal, state, and local income taxes withheld as well, just as if you were a fully documented worker. The idea that the simple lack of a green card somehow means that you don't pay taxes is a myth that only those who desperately want to believe it can take seriously.
First, we are talking about setting up a program for some 350 million people.
Yeah, somewhere around 2025 we'll reach 350 million people.
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Originally Posted by Greatday
Second, inasmuch as a government program would essentially do away with the private insurance companies, under United States law, those companies may have to be compensated, by the government under the concept of Eminent Domain.
Well, maybe under your concept of eminent domain, but certainly not under that of most others, and very definitely not under the actual law of eminent domain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday
Next, depending upon how such a UHI program is setup, if the existing Hospitals, throughout the entire country, are going to be converted to government run / owned facilities, those hospitals - totaling in the 1000's, would have to be purchased at market value and compensation for lost profits paid.
Why on earth would anyone do that? Your Marxist paranoia is at work here. Did HMO's find it necessary to buy up all the hospitals and out-patient clinics in the country when they came along? Not that I recall...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday
And, we are talking about the establishment of a program in 50 states plus United States territories such as Puerto Rico, Guam, USVI and so on.
Oh, the horror. France has all those overseas departments and territories that are part of metropolitan France. How much did it hold them back?
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Originally Posted by Greatday
And the above is only the beginning of the costs.
Beginning of the costs? Zero dollars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday
Then, there is the establishment of the administration of collection of the revenue necessary for a UHI program - a whole new bureaucracy of our government
Hmmm. Seems like we already have an IRS and an SSA doing very similar work. Why don't we ask them to take a look?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday
Then, there is the issue of the Doctors and the negotiations’ with each and every doctor as to how much they will be paid for various procedures. While this is already done with Medicare now, many Doctors are refusing to take Medicare patients because of the very low re-imbursement rates. This could prove to be a major obstacle with a UHI program.
Nobody will be negotiating with individual doctors. With a board of doctors established for the purpose, quite possibly. If an individual doctor wants to charge more, he or increasingly she can take it up with an individual patient and see how much of an overage can be extorted before the patient switches care to the doctor down the hall. It'll be sort of a free market thing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday
And there is more but, I think you can get the idea -
Yes, I for one get the idea. And that idea is that you don't have any sort of clear understanding at all of what national health care actually is or entails.
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