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I wouldn't completely dismiss blue collar guys if I were you. Some of them make more money than folks with PhD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25
I was going to speak to this point as well.
I am in a creative, liberal arts field. I know quite a few other women in this field as well, ages ranging from early 20s to mid 70s. The VAST majority of these women - including myself - are married to blue collar men. I find it fascinating and I wonder what the catalyst is to these relationship dynamics.
I think people who reject partners because they are blue collar are really missing out on a lot of good, stable men who are loyal, intelligent, hard working and have morals. A college degree does not a good person make.
Yes, there are a LOT of great men who are blue collar but I have seen two of my close friends (one white and one Hispanic) go through hell after marrying guys who made much less money, were not college educated and would be considered blue collar. Both friends are college educated with jobs in the low six figures and have done well financially.
It was truly sad to see what each of my friends went through with their husbands. The guys started to resent the woman's financial success. One of my friend's husbands would not keep a job and would make BIG purchases without consulting her putting them at financial risk. They are now divorced and she pays him spousal support. The other friend had a husband who became verbally and physically violent with her. He also resented that she was the "breadwinner".
what you're describing is like an organized effort to undermine the efforts of black women. Black men may vent about black women but it's not what you see from the youtube guys that have been mentioned. And guess what, IT'S OKAY TO SPEAK ABOUT BLACK WOMEN SOMETIMES...NOBODY IS PERFECT.We have opinions and gripes about black women, and women in general. Yall speak ill about black men and men of other races too. You'll never have a population of men and women in completely harmony. You really have this image of black men constantly calling all black women derogatory names. If anything black men would rather put another black man in check for his wrong ways...face to face. The reason you don't see black men in mass going at the Tommy Soto____'s of the world is because you can simply ignore them and it's a waste of time.
I agree with most of this post. The only thing I would disagree with is if you ignore things, they don't go away. Again, I tell my own spouse this all the time and he is heavily focused on racism IMO and I tell him that ignoring these sorts of things occurring within our community is the same thing as those Americans who say we should ignore racism and not talk about it. Ignoring things does not make them go away. Like it or not, YT and other social and video media outlets are the new norm and are the "media."
From an historical perspective, we should also consider that black Americans fought for a century and decades (and still are in a sense) the negative depictions of us in media and, rightly reasoned that those constant depictions limited opportunities and had a potential to devastate the personal lives of us who were described in such a demeaning manner.
The NAACP in the area I live launched a campaign in our local area over 100 years ago and were the first local NAACP to be successful in getting our newspaper media to stop referring to blacks in the press as n**gers and darky/darkies. They also went on a campaign to make sure that the race of a criminal was mentioned ALL THE TIME not just when the perpetuator was a black person. Again, this was over 100 years ago. It was an issue because if you keep seeing blacks in the paper back then referred to as criminal n**gers all the time, the regular diction of the populace will pick up those terms in conversation. The same can be said today of these YT phenoms. They get millions of "views" and "likes" and "followers." The sort of language they use and the way they denigrate black women in particular is perpetuated in our community on a vast level. It needs to be confronted and it is a sad thing IMO that black women will have to be the ones to confront this without the support of a large constituent of black men. Over 100 years ago, the women of the NAACP were very active in these campaigns because they cared about black men and didn't want them vastly mis-characterized.
The women on the thread and myself are of the belief that black men should do the same thing for us. Regardless of those same man/woman differences. We don't deserve to be mis-characterized. Ignoring those who denigrate us for many of us tell us that you are okay with us being seen in this way and don't want to do anything to lessen the mis-characterization of us as black women.
Sometimes I think many black men think of themselves as the weaker sex and go over board to compensate. How many times in TV and film has the stereotypical, "big, black, sassy, woman," taken charge of things when there was no black male figure present. Omarosa is decidedly the stronger of the two black people in Trump's inner circle.
I remember when I was young a white women was trying to set me up with her white girl friend. She insinuated that they, (white women who date black men) accepted the imperfections in black men. It made me think they thought of me as dog you would adopt from a shelter, accepting whatever baggage comes with his unique experience, LOL. Maybe that's why some black men go to white women, their standards maybe different.
I hope that this doesn't come across the wrong way but I think that a LOT of black women (myself included) are frustrated because we personally know great black men (like my father and uncles) and we see the potential of so many others who don't even try to live up to their potential.
A LOT of black women fight really hard for black men in society, at school, at work, etc. But there is a great deal of resentment from black men, in general, for this and rejection as well. The resentment and rejection causes some black men to lash out with name calling and social media shaming. This is why I believe that it is time for black women to pull back from the role of advocate for black men and focus on our own issues.
Short answer: No. Black women do not owe black men unity.
Black women are WOMEN first, not black. We deserve the BEST deal as women and gladly a lot of us are starting to see that black men collectively hold us back from that. Black men need to focus on being MEN which means holding other black men accountable for not taking care of their children and leaving their communities in a cesspool of violence, abuse, and disease. Black men need to find a way, just like other non-white races of men, to build for their women and children. This requires that black men become educated in either a skill or trade that is relevant in society. None of this black men WANT to do, even though the "evil" white man has provided many opportunities (low income scholarships, grants, etc) in order for you to do as such. Black women are no longer going to be gaslighted and have the wool pooled over her eyes by your ineptness and failure to take responsibility for yourselves as men.
It is interesting that we see these threads and pleads on social media from black man to unify AFTER black women are starting to wake up to the reality of who black men collectively are - and consequently adapt their mating and dating choices to reflect such. Black men have held very selective, colorist ideals of black women for for too long. You all degrade and defame us in your rap lyrics and music videos. Instead of appreciating us you lust after the whitest, brightest woman you can get. And for those that do entertain black women you leave us unmarried baby mommas. You don't want us to wear makeup, you tell us to remain "thick" aka obese only to not draw the attention of other races of men who come to benefit us.
The best, brightest, and most desirable black women are moving on and forward. Sorry this is done so publicly but you all have spent the last 10 years defaming our image we feel it's only appropriate to return the favor. So no - we are not marching for you, pleading with you for our humanity, and we are not blaming white men for your failures as men but instead accepting their offers for romantic love and marriage which will benefit us.
Common culture was based around a patriarch which is basically stating you have a head and a tail, you have a leader and moreso someone who's a follower. The black community has never been a normal community so it's hard to give you a normal answer, we never really had our own culture since the slavery and the Moors was too long along for most to remember.
So common culture is based around European standards which brings me back to patriarchy.
I will answer more in depth but I won't blame tons of black males, most poor and under-educated and usually have to be a position to chase women to get respect, I won't blame them for doing dumb things, like I said blacks in america never had a standard like other groups have.
These issues aren't big in other communities because the men are used to moreso getting respected and treated like men.
On the bold, there is no "common culture."
On the blue, we have a very deep, inspiring culture, something I personally speak about all the time. To say we have no culture is pure disrespect IMO to all the black men and women, our ancestors, who have been in this country for 500 years. To think we do not have a culture after 500 years of living in a place that is uniquely our own shows a lack of cultural education about us as a demographic and I mean not insult with the above, but I personally feel that the biggest issue facing black America today is ignorance about our culture and history as a people in this country.
I do genealogical research and my family has lines that has been in this country since the 1600s before this country even became a country. I have a culture. I stand on the backs of these people who lived and worked to make their children and down the line, my life much better than they could have ever imagined. To ignore their cultural contributions to us as a people is very disrespectful and unwarranted.
Okay...on patriarchy. Many cultures of the African diaspora were not built upon patriarchy. Our black American culture was not built upon patriarchy. There are many matriarchal cultures in the world. There is not "common culture."
I stated earlier that I blame my husband's views on him believing that because he has a penis he is the sole leader of our family, on his religious upbringing. Christianity has a patriarchal culture and it clashes with our historical culture as a demographic being that blacks in America have never had a 100% true patriarchal existence. No matter what people say to denigrate the feminists, blacks have had a large amount of female lead families for hundreds of years due to our ancestor's status in society and not having the ability to adopt a true Christian patriarchal system.
On your last issue, other ethnicities in America have similar issues to what you have described in that many white men think that their women don't respect them for the "men they are." But my response to that would be, why should a woman respect you just because you have a penis. If you've done nothing worth her respect, if you are living off of her, if you don't help her at home or with finances, if you seek to constantly demean her, why should she just automatically respect you?
And I think that is the gist of the issues with men and women today. Men expect respect just because they are men and don't respect their women. They think they should have MORE respect just because of their penis is how I take it. We can ignore everything women do and act like they are crazy naggers when they are doing a lot of things worthy of respect but because they don't have a penis, they don't deserve to automatically be treated well....? It is an odd mindset that many men have. As stated, I agree with the previous poster who spoke about all men and women having these sorts of issues. I agree with that, but the above of what I wrote is the gist of it IMO. Men think because they have a penis we should respect them and place them above ourselves and our own interest.
This is whole crux of my own prejudice against men that I admit. I see this in all men. The desire to be adored and upheld just because they are a man. It is an odd thing to me.
I'm comparing black women to other women, not men, that would be silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA
Who is raising these men? You guys act like it's a blank slate not a cycle. A woman decides to mate with a short term partner, raises boy without a father and boy grows up emotional & undisciplined. He will most likely not be marriage material because he's used to getting what he wants now. Do this millions of times over and you have black America.
On these, black women are like all other women. The overwhelmingly want a long term, stable relationship with a mate.
On the "who is raising these men" question you posed, as I stated earlier the vast majority of black men had their fathers in their lives. My father raised 3 sons. His father raised him. I know black men who are single fathers. One comes to mind who is distantly related (a 3rd cousin) who had 4 grown sons. He raised them by himself. They have 3 different mothers. The sons are all in the 20s and 30s now. All of them have at least 2 kids. They all have at least 2 different mothers to their children.
I think the whole blame game is pretty silly honestly with the whole black mothers/women are to blame for everything negative that black fathers/men do.
I think the most pressing issue facing black men today is the fact that they don't want to take responsibility for their actions, their behaviors, or their lots in life if they are not where they want to be.
Men grow up and lead their own lives. Girls who are raised without mothers somehow become decent, responsible mothers and people, yet we feel that boys cannot
And again, I am a married black woman to a black man. My husband was raised by a single mother but he has 6 uncles who were heavily involved in his life. He is raising our son and has been in his life since he was born. But it would not surprise me if our son grew up and demeaned black women in the same way that his father has and his uncles and my father has (who grew up with his father as well).
Fatherlessness is very much overplayed by our media and leads too many black people to think that men aren't involved in their children's lives. That may have been the case during the crack epidemic, but it is not so today and even back then black men were majority involved in their childrens lives and raising their children.
I'm friends with a black man from high school. He's very vocal about male black issues in America. He is very intelligent and persuasive with his arguments and he's a really nice guy.
Then...
You visit his Facebook page. And my God. The amount of misogynistic, foul posts this man puts up regarding women is mind boggling. Whether its bagging on welfare queens, THOTs, black women who date low quality black men, single moms, etc. he must post 25 times a day. He also constantly posts about women's asses and makes WCW a daily thing. He just seems very misogynistic which, in my opinion, is such a contradiction to his intelligence and charisma.
I also know lots of people like this IRL.
This is the stuff many of us are referencing.
Practically all the men I know don't speak in such a foul manner IRL but go nuts online with the crap they post. I personally feel that people who post all that crap, they really truly believe all that stuff deep down.
And to deny it and act like it is not in their mind is ridiculous.
It's not the 70s anymore, cost of living isn't cheap, rent is through the roof and bills need to be paid + women (black) want to be attractive and do their thing + settling down to marry after they date.
my parents came here in the 70's, my dad didn't even work until he was 30, my mom took care of him for years. He ended up going to school, getting a good job and leaving her for another woman lol.
He ended up much well off while my mom struggled raising me.
Alot of us come from that background, single parent home or whatever, seeing mother by herself for 20 or more years.
Younger people are scared, very scared.
It's not like we're guaranteed a job these days, jose can do the same job the black man did in the 70's today while having a stronger community, most likely being married with a family which makes employers feel a little better about hiring men, they prefer married men who are stable over single wild dudes who will probably quit on a dime.
So alot of guys like the guy you mentioned lash out because deep down they hate the community and lash out about it daily, especially online to others.
Blacks are trying to mimic whites now, the 70s was about finding a black man and raising a black family while fighting for equality these days it's find a decent man who can provide regardless of race.
Times have changed and we're adjusting, some just don't wanna bother with the nonsense and date out/ marry out and get it over with.
Reality is we think as individuals rather that a group, core of all the problems.
But these folks don't understand real conservatism and what it was founded on.
Wanted to note on the 70s that they were not all hunky dory.
On the bold this is the situation for many black women even though some of the men posters have stated that black women don't want long term relationships.
In your opinion, was it your mother's fault that your dad left you and your mom? Was your dad raised by a single mother? If not, how can we blame these behaviors of black men on black women?
On jobs, black people have never been guaranteed a job. Employers do not prefer married people and don't even ask about that sort of thing either. Also it is not Jose's fault that Jamal doesn't want to get married. Black women don't stop black men from proposing. Black women are still like your mom and will sacrifice and take care of family and her man and do a lot of things but the black man will not stay with her no matter what she sacrifices or does for him.
FWIW many of my single black women friends and family post lamenting quotes and memes all the time about men not being "loyal." I agree with them in today's environment. Men will use you up. Expect you to respect them just because they are a man (i.e. have a penis) and will criticize the woman who works all day and doesn't come home and make them a 4 course meal and do everything for the man just because he has a penis. After she gets sick of doing everything for him, he'll leave her when she stops or when he gets in a better position.
Again, men need to focus on themselves and quite trying to blame women for your irresponsibility and laziness and disloyalty. Even though I am married, if I ever get divorced or if something tragic happens, I would never marry again. I don't think it is all that great and it takes a lot of work. Dealing with the male ego is the worst part of it and the idea that too many men have that they are a leader just because they have a penis lol.
On the bold regarding the 70s, the black woman who was down for her man in the 70s fighting for equality was left like your mom was. All women now mostly looking to themselves for financial support and looking for a relationship for companionship is a result of those past eras. I personally will never depend on a man for my financial lot in life if I can help it. I never have either. My great grandmother warned me to never depend on a man financially because even in her generation, she knew women whose husband's left them for younger women and left those women destitute. This stuff is not new and it is a reason why us women don't automatically respect men just because. One has to be loyal, responsible, trustworthy, and dependable to be worthy of being respected.
exactly, ask yourself why a black man is buying 300 dollar shoes?
he's not doing it for hisself but for the attention he gets with it on.
You literally have a group of men fighting for attention lol
That's the core issue which is why arguing with liberal minded black women is pretty stupid, they don't understand what I'm really saying so it's pointless.
White men can wear a 15 dollar pair of jeans, 9.99 tshirt and get more respect from black women that a black guy wearing 300 shoes lol, they don't see this stuff.
literally I can turn on tv and see a group of black women bashing black males on TV for the world to see and we're supposed to be the MEN in the community lol.
and liberals allow this intentionally to separate the community even more.
I told people years ago I'd rather live in KKK land than NYC, at least you know who you are and what you're up against as opposed to some fake fantasy crap designed to screw up your mind.
Black men buy $300 shoes because they are materialistic.
That is the simple answer.
Our whole society is materialistic. Do you think that the man buying the $300 shoes is any different from the woman buying some $500 shoes? Both are materialistic and trying to get attention, usually from each other. I say let those types of people be with each other.
Your "core issue" doesn't make any sense and black women speaking about the issues written about in this thread isn't being "liberal minded." I am not a liberal.
I think you don't want to understand what we are saying so you are making excuses for why you should not pay attention.
I don't watch TV because I'm too busy working and doing things with friends/family. Most of the black women I know are the same. Hell, even the poorer black women in my own family they work 2-3 jobs. They don't have time to sit around and watch TV or bash black men.
I know who I am around anyone. Maybe that is an issue with you personally. No matter the city/area I live in, I know who I am and what I want and I am very solidly comfortable with myself. I also make sure to be open-minded and listen to the concerns of the people in my life and community, especially to people I love like my spouse or family members.
You are separating "the community" by not listening and being open minded to members of your community.
Location: Born & Raised DC > Carolinas > Seattle > Denver
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Okay....the more responses I read in this thread, the more it's starting to truly concern me.
Some of you folks are painting an awfully negative picture of the relationship between men and women in the black community....
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