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Standardized tests are not used to educate children. They are used to evaluate them.
They shouldn't be the ONLY way to evaluate them, but if you left it to the teachers unions they want kids evaluated based on the teacher's feelings.
Where has any teacher's union said they want children to be evaluated based on a teacher's feelings? Unless you mean having the teacher who is educating the children make the decision on where a child's education level is at based on assignments and rate of learning.
People not following the nyc race closely may not grasp the true intent of this. I'm not turning this into liberal vs. conservative, etc. but this guy is soooo far to the left, it's not funny. Nyc is already the highest taxed place in the country. He wants to raise taxes on 'wealthy' to fund daycare, etc. throw stop and frisk out the window and get rid of ray Kelly, the current police commissioner.
Come to think of it, isn't it racist to charge admission for private schools? Think bill should look into this as well.
Actually no NYC is not the highest for taxes wouldn't be that a city like San Diego or San Francisco. If anything NYC is more expensive because of all the hipsters and the land estimators that think a tiny apartment in the middle of the city should be valued at over 5 - $6,000 or in many cases even more than that. And to the rest I see no reason why getting rid of Ray Kelly would be a bad thing or an end to stop and frisk which is just a very lazy way to do police work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cw30000
How about improve the public school. I am a product of nyc public school and I am ashamed that I didn't learn anything useful. I am an A student, but didn't know anything. I had to do some real learning after birth got out of high school.
If charter schools can do it, I don't see why can't public school improve the overall student knowledge. Not to mention public cost more money per student
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Maybe if we didn't have certain know nothings meddlng with the public school system we wouldn't have such a problem. The reason many charter schools work so well is because they skim off the top of the public education system and charge more. With doing that they limit the amount of kids that get into there schools and so limit the size of classrooms. Yet with the public school system we've had a combined problem of Bloomberg putting more faith in tests than actual teaching and from bush's policy failure A.k.A. NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND which is a truly crappy way of testing kids. No what should be a better and a more fairer way is simply let the teachers ACTUALLY TEACH instead of teachers just teaching kids so they can pass a bs test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan
Well we've had those types of tests for decades upon decades....
SAT, ACT, GRE, CLEP, etc.
If you have the knowledge you'll pass the test.
How else do you selectively choose the few brightest to attend these schools.
By looking at there grades throughout school and not just what they score on a test ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano
Standardized tests are not used to educate children. They are used to evaluate them.
They shouldn't be the ONLY way to evaluate them, but if you left it to the teachers unions they want kids evaluated based on the teacher's feelings.
No standardized tests are bs ! They force the teachers to teach what will be on the test instead of just TEACHING THE STUDENTS.
The point is, the mayor wants to replace the test with skin color.
Ivy league universities and their sister schools, all use standardized testing, in addition to other factors such as GPA, class ranking, extra curricular activities, recommendations and personal statements written by the students. They also consider socioeconomic backgrounds when making admission decisions. Although they consistently use the aforementioned factors, in addition to standardized testing; they still consistently produce the best and brightest students and function as the pillar and crowning jewel of academia throughout the world.
Low income minority students who are often reared in single parent or foster care homes do not usually have the same support systems in place as upper income students. But this doesn't mean there aren't students from low income single-parent backgrounds who have the drive and ability to achieve. In my opinion, all students should have an equal chance of admission, therefore, the elite schools of NYC should take a more nuanced approach to their admissions policy. Standardized testing should still be used, but they should also consider prior academic achievement, admission essays, recommendations, extra curricular activities and interviews.
Ivy league universities and their sister schools, all use standardized testing, in addition to other factors such as GPA, class ranking, extra curricular activities, recommendations and personal statements written by the students. They also consider socioeconomic backgrounds when making admission decisions. Although they consistently use the aforementioned factors, in addition to standardized testing; they still consistently produce the best and brightest students and function as the pillar and crowning jewel of academia throughout the world.
Low income minority students who are often reared in single parent or foster care homes do not usually have the same support systems in place as upper income students. But this doesn't mean there aren't students from low income single-parent backgrounds who have the drive and ability to achieve. In my opinion, all students should have an equal chance of admission, therefore, the elite schools of NYC should take a more nuanced approach to their admissions policy. Standardized testing should still be used, but they should also consider prior academic achievement, admission essays, recommendations, extra curricular activities and interviews.
So if I was born in a middle class Asian family and my parents encourage me to work hard, I should be punished?
I need to have a single mom or abused childhood to be admitted?
Ivy league universities and their sister schools, all use standardized testing, in addition to other factors such as GPA, class ranking, extra curricular activities, recommendations and personal statements written by the students. They also consider socioeconomic backgrounds when making admission decisions. Although they consistently use the aforementioned factors, in addition to standardized testing; they still consistently produce the best and brightest students and function as the pillar and crowning jewel of academia throughout the world.
Low income minority students who are often reared in single parent or foster care homes do not usually have the same support systems in place as upper income students. But this doesn't mean there aren't students from low income single-parent backgrounds who have the drive and ability to achieve. In my opinion, all students should have an equal chance of admission, therefore, the elite schools of NYC should take a more nuanced approach to their admissions policy. Standardized testing should still be used, but they should also consider prior academic achievement, admission essays, recommendations, extra curricular activities and interviews.
This is all true, and as reasonable and rational that one could have stated it. However, let's be honest here, even if we were to implement those very same requirements, the demographics will pretty much remain the same at these schools.
Let's not sit here and pretend as if the kids who aren't getting into these schools have everything else but the test scores themselves. Chances are, if they don't have the test scores-- then they probably don't have the grades, extracurricular activities, class ranking or letters of recommendations to compete with the kids who do and who are already being admitted. People have been discussing as if, the scores are the only things that would keep some of these kids out, when in reality they probably aren't competing on any level. It's the harsh truth and a tough reality.
This is all true, and as reasonable and rational that one could have stated it. However, let's be honest here, even if we were to implement those very same requirements, the demographics will pretty much remain the same at these schools.
Let's not sit here and pretend as if the kids who aren't getting into these schools have everything else but the test scores themselves. Chances are, if they don't have the test scores-- then they probably don't have the grades, extracurricular activities, class ranking or letters of recommendations to compete with the kids who do and who are already being admitted. People have been discussing as if, the scores are the only things that would keep some of these kids out, when in reality they probably aren't competing on any level. It's the harsh truth and a tough reality.
It's true. We can't equalize this stuff. The only way to REALLY help give everyone a fair shake is to remove kids from substandard homes and we are not going to ever do that. Educational opportunities exist for everyone, for the taking, but it's other factors that hold people down.
He wants these high performing schools to represent the same demographics as the city.
If 1/2 of the residents are Black/Latino then 1/2 of the school should be as well but the school is only at 12% Black/Latino student population.
So I guess he'll need to get rid of the testing for admission and lower the bar and change the classes so they are not so hard.
There's only 3 public high schools in NYC where the really smart kids can go and this guy has a racial problem with that.
Rather than get rid of the testing how's about working on getting the Black/Latino kids smarter so they can pass those tests ?
From the OP link:
Although more than half of the city’s residents are black or Latino, just 12% of the students at the elite high schools — which include Stuyvesant High School, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech — were black or Latino last year.
There are more than 3 "elite" public schools in NYC. Also, most schools now a days use standardized testing and other factors in regards to admissions.
It is also interesting to note that in the past (70s and 80s especially) there were far more black students especially in the top 3 elite NYC public high schools than there are now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan
Well we've had those types of tests for decades upon decades....
SAT, ACT, GRE, CLEP, etc.
If you have the knowledge you'll pass the test.
How else do you selectively choose the few brightest to attend these schools.
Actually, for all of those test you mentioned there really isn't a "passing" score. All of them base your score on a percentile so that students can be ranked nationally. You can either be below average, average, or above average in varying categories and studies have shown that someone testing above average in the lower end (say 89th percentile) has not statistical disadvantage than someone testing in the higher "above average" category (say 95th percentile), which is why many colleges universities are placing less weight on SAT, ACT, and GRE in particular (not sure of CLEP) along with GMAT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA
The admission criteria for the elite NYC public schools are actually the most egalitarian around. If a kid busts their butt, studies hard and does well on the test they gain admittance. As a result they have pretty much stamped a ticket to an Ivy, Public Ivy or good 2nd tier school. No legacies admits, no sons or daughters of government officials just pure talent.
Why liberals want to destroy it out of some silly need for diversity is beyond me. Maybe they can have an elite school for Blacks and Hispanics? Take the top test scores for those kids who didn't get into the elite ones.
Actually, I have done some research into NYC top public high schools and they actually have a cut off score, which can be different based on the school. So the top kids who meet the cut off are available for admission. Say the cut off is a 475 but the test goes up to a 550, the kids between 475 and 500 have just as much of a shot getting into the school versus the 540 kid just because they made the cut off. Also in NYC schools, the students have a preference of which school to attend. More black and Hispanic students do not seek to go to the most highly rated public high school due to the low amount of black and Hispanic students. Race and comfort level are still a factor for many families. I will admit that my husband especially, would never want our kids to go to a school that is less than 15% black and at that point there would need to be at least 15% Hispanic kids for him to be comfortable with letting our kids go to that school. He was heavily bullied and was the victim of racism in Chicago selective enrollment schools as a child and as such is wary of having his child be an extreme minority. Many black and Hispanic parents and kids are the same way and they do base diversity of a school in regards to where they want to attend.
Actually no NYC is not the highest for taxes wouldn't be that a city like San Diego or San Francisco. If anything NYC is more expensive because of all the hipsters and the land estimators that think a tiny apartment in the middle of the city should be valued at over 5 - $6,000 or in many cases even more than that. And to the rest I see no reason why getting rid of Ray Kelly would be a bad thing or an end to stop and frisk which is just a very lazy way to do police work.
Maybe if we didn't have certain know nothings meddlng with the public school system we wouldn't have such a problem. The reason many charter schools work so well is because they skim off the top of the public education system and charge more. With doing that they limit the amount of kids that get into there schools and so limit the size of classrooms. Yet with the public school system we've had a combined problem of Bloomberg putting more faith in tests than actual teaching and from bush's policy failure A.k.A. NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND which is a truly crappy way of testing kids. No what should be a better and a more fairer way is simply let the teachers ACTUALLY TEACH instead of teachers just teaching kids so they can pass a bs test.
By looking at there grades throughout school and not just what they score on a test ???
No standardized tests are bs ! They force the teachers to teach what will be on the test instead of just TEACHING THE STUDENTS.
That won't make those elite schools more "diverse" and that is the issue..not enough Blacks and Hispanics are in these elite schools.
Charter schools can choose who to accept or not and charter schools can expel students.
Public schools don't have that luxury.
youve said yourself in the past that you used your race as a factor to get into schools because you didnt have the grade.
now all of a sudden you change your mind
When did I say that? My GMAT score was 700 I didn't need race to get into business school. Now I did apply through a program whose mission is to address the under representation of underrepresented minorities in business. The application is open to all though.
There are more than 3 "elite" public schools in NYC. Also, most schools now a days use standardized testing and other factors in regards to admissions.
It is also interesting to note that in the past (70s and 80s especially) there were far more black students especially in the top 3 elite NYC public high schools than there are now.
Actually, for all of those test you mentioned there really isn't a "passing" score. All of them base your score on a percentile so that students can be ranked nationally. You can either be below average, average, or above average in varying categories and studies have shown that someone testing above average in the lower end (say 89th percentile) has not statistical disadvantage than someone testing in the higher "above average" category (say 95th percentile), which is why many colleges universities are placing less weight on SAT, ACT, and GRE in particular (not sure of CLEP) along with GMAT.
Actually, I have done some research into NYC top public high schools and they actually have a cut off score, which can be different based on the school. So the top kids who meet the cut off are available for admission. Say the cut off is a 475 but the test goes up to a 550, the kids between 475 and 500 have just as much of a shot getting into the school versus the 540 kid just because they made the cut off. Also in NYC schools, the students have a preference of which school to attend. More black and Hispanic students do not seek to go to the most highly rated public high school due to the low amount of black and Hispanic students. Race and comfort level are still a factor for many families. I will admit that my husband especially, would never want our kids to go to a school that is less than 15% black and at that point there would need to be at least 15% Hispanic kids for him to be comfortable with letting our kids go to that school. He was heavily bullied and was the victim of racism in Chicago selective enrollment schools as a child and as such is wary of having his child be an extreme minority. Many black and Hispanic parents and kids are the same way and they do base diversity of a school in regards to where they want to attend.
I'm sorry schools are not putting less weight on test scores. The greatest signal of academic rigor, quality and competitiveness is the SAT mean or range for a school. Admission officers will not jeopardize that for diversity I don't care what they say in public.
You're from GA you know first hand how UGA's profile has increased as the average SAT score increased mainly because of the HOPE Scholarship.
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