If you believe 9/11 was a hoax... (statistics, programs, minorities, countries)
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I guess that makes you look like a fool. Federal laws and regulations require aircraft to be re-assembled. If you want to see TWA Flight 800, you can. The aircraft still exists. It's sitting in a warehouse. It was re-assembled because federal laws and regulations require it to be re-assembled.
Both Flight 93 and Flight 77 should have been reassembled, and both should still be sitting in a warehouse right now, because federal laws required it to be reassembled.
If you read the FEMA and NIST reports, both lament the fact that evidence was hauled away before either group had a chance to examine it.
The WTC, Pentagon and area near Shanksville, PA are crime scenes. Everything there is evidence. And it was all carted away and destroyed without examination in violation of numerous federal and State laws.
To my knowledge, the official story claims that the aircraft were totally destroyed, with nothing left to "piece together". This is a remarkable set of events, and totally unbelievable, but then again, so is the notion that the building and all of it's contents could be pulverized into clouds of dust and twisted steel beams. In the case of Shanksville, there was little there moments after the alleged crash other than a smoking hole with a small quantity of debris insufficient to make up a large aircraft. The same is true of the Pentagon, and the curious lack of sufficient debris.
At this point, I would place zero credibility in anything FEMA or NIST have to say. These groups are most certainly involved at some significant level.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
That is a grotesque story perpetuated by idiots. The conspiracy for 9-11 was in planning long before Bush even announced his candidacy for president, so it is not logical that he or his administration were a part of it.
I've noticed a reoccurring theme in this lengthy rebuttal ... the insistence that "The Government" isn't involved, but that 6-12 government employees were operating outside of official authority. Forgive me for saying so, but this is almost as implausible as those who claim that a government conspiracy would require ten's of thousands of people, yet at the same time believe 19 Arabs and a guy in a cave pulled it off without a hitch, and no other assistance. The contradiction in that type of position is beyond explanation.
The reality is, in my opinion, it would take way more than a dozen, and way less than thousands .... perhaps a few dozen strategically placed individuals could pull off this operation from the inside, but not 6or even 12 individuals. The operation is much to large and complex. Perhaps a few dozen who know most or all of the operational parameters, and then a larger subset of unwitting co-conspirators who were compartmentalized, and simply following orders without realizing what it was they were participating in. That's the most likely hypothesis,in my view.
Nevertheless, those few dozen or so individuals in the know would have to be very high level types .... holding positions of power that for all intent and purposes can be considered "the government". There were too many individual agencies and military operations participating in this to conclude that it was the work of a small handful of individuals, unless that group is comprised of the President, Vice President, Joint Chiefs, CIA Director, FBI Director, FEMA Director, NTSB Director, NORAD Commander, FAA Director? Of course, either way, it's safe to say that IS the "Government".
Now I agree that the planning of 911 was likely in the works long before Bush Jr took office, and I have no illusions about the President (any of them) actually making policy ... all of them are puppets who do as they are told, and follow the script they are given. Hell, these clowns don't even write their own speaches ... that too is handed to them to read. And it is unlikely that Bush played any major role in the operational planning of this covert intelligence operation ... but he had to know about it, and so did Cheney, given their actions months prior to 911, and their actions on the day of. So yes ... it was the government, and not just a hand full of disgruntled employees taking a payoff from Osama Bin Laden. Bin Laden was a long term CIA asset, and 911 was a classic intelligence operation. It couldn't have been done without the participation of high level intelligence participation.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
Once again, for the hard of hearing and the stupid, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey were privatizing all of their properties, those properties included, among things, the Port of Bayonne, JFK Airport, Newark Airport, various bus, rail and subway terminals and stations, and of course, the WTC.
I'll break here (for the sake of keeping this LARGE post manageable). The whole course of events leading to the lease of the WTC complex by Larry Silverstein is an interesting side note, and a thorough investigation of those events would likely reveal interesting facts and connections ... but it's inconsequential to the overall operation, as Silverstein is not in the position of authority to run Pentagon exercises, control the communications between ATC, FAA and NORAD and the lack of response to 4 commercial airliners grossly off flight paths, with transponders turned off, and no communications between ATC and the cockpits for extended periods of time, with drastically delayed response. He didn't have the power to order FBI counterterrorist investigators to drop certain investigations into the Bin Ladens, and he wasn't meeting with the former Pakistani Intelligence Chief (tied to the $100,000 wire transfer to Atta) on the morning of 911, among many other very glarring pieces of evidence of high level involvement. To dismiss these things is to embrace your own version of denial, while chastising others as stupid and ignorant.
Now I think you are well ahead of the average person in that you see the official story as illegitimate, but we've got a hell of a lot more than 12 individuals covering up what really happened. That makes them accessories after the fact (at a minimum) and suggests that they may have been involved all along.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
The best way to derail any conspiracy theory is to interject inane and totally asinine theories into it.
That's part and parcel of psy-ops warfare and it's simply divide and conquer by driving away the intelligent people by introducing nonsense like no planes, or holographic planes and all the other bizarre stuff.
This is absolutely true ... it's called disinformation, and it's done all of the time. And I've never seen such a convoluted conglomeration of fairytale, lies, distortions and implausible story telling as has defined the 911 event. From Scalar Weapons to fire melting steel, we've been bombarded with official lies to expert speculation and conjecture. Each presenting relative levels of plausibility, which makes things that much more confusing. But as they say, the truth is often stranger than fiction, and I believe there is no greater example that reflects the accuracy of that statement than 911.
Now you sound very confident that you've got this all figured out, and that you know what is true and what isn't. That's a dangerously big leap for anyone not intimately involved in the execution of event itself, and I'd be careful if I were you about who you call stupid and ignorant.
I believe I've studied this subject much more than most, and I started doing so the day of the event, and yet I'm still discovering new information ...some of which was there the whole time, and I just missed it. It wasn't until some of these issues were pointed out to me to that I could then see just how obvious these things were. So now, I don't dismiss anything out of hand, and look at things with a much more open mind.
Now this is where I, according to you, become an idiot, but that's OK ... I'm confident in what I have seen and the assessments I've made, for which I shall share with you. First, I can say that I don't know what exactly happened on 911, and neither do you. We both have our opinions, which are conjecture, and based on our level of knowledge and ability to analyze information. And I will readily admit that I too dismissed this as wacky nonsense from people with overactive imaginations ... but the video evidence of two airliners striking the WTC Towers is a pure fabrication. Pure, UNQUESTIONABLE video trickery, and not very good special effects at that. And anyone with knowledge of video editing and compositing experience can see (if they really look and are honest with themselves) blatent compositing and fabricating of these planes. Am I saying nothing hit the towers? No .... I don't know what happened ... but what I do know, and am 100% certain of, is that the video showing these planes hitting the Towers are fake ... no ifs, ands or buts ... totally unreal.
Morever, after looking at this CAREFULLY ... I also began looking at other footage more critically, and much of that was totally fake as well. Fake people, fake live footage from helicopters which show impossible imagry that could only be the result of video compositing of foregrounds and backgrouds ... all of it alleged "Live Network Video".
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Originally Posted by Mircea
The biggest problem is that people aren't intelligent enough to distinguish between an handful of government employees engaging in a conspiracy, and the government.
The fact that perhaps 6-12 government employees concocted a conspiracy does not mean the government did, and 6-12 government employees are not the government; they're just government employees.
I think the biggest problem is that everyone THINKS they know what happened, and believe that anyone who doesn't agree are stupid or ignorant. The better idea is to admit that we don't know exactly what happened, though it is relatively certain that what we've been told is not at all true.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
I could execute a conspiracy of that magnitude with only 6-12 people.
Like the vast majority of people, you just can't wrap your brain around conspiracies.
It's frustrating. I've sat in court with prosecutors (and as a paralegal with defense attorneys) and frauds and conspiracies are the most difficult things to prove to a jury, and testified in fraud and conspiracy trials.
Even when you connect the dots, they just don't get it. The jurors sit there looking like cows chewing cud.
I'd have a lot of fun with someone like you.
Neither you nor Osama Bin Laden, nor anyone else could execute an operation like 911 with only 12 people.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
Now we come to the big one. If a dozen US government employees plan a conspiracy to further their own aims and agenda, is that
1) a conspiracy by the US government;
or is that
2) a conspiracy by a dozen US government employes acting without the knowledge, authority, approval or consent of in anyone in the US government
Some people can't seen the trees in the forest.
And some people sound like THEY are promoting disinfo.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
People keep saying "the government, the government, the government, the government" but the government had nothing to do with it.
Learn and understand the difference between the government, and a few people working for government.
They are not the same thing.
Broken record.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
Apparently, the lot of you don't understand the power and authority that some people in government have. They have tremendous power and authority and they are sometimes not closely monitored or supervised and that's especially true for the Alphabet agencies.
They have loyal minions willing to do whatever they say.
And they often have large budgets with lots of money, and again, for the Alphabet agencies, that money is off the books and there is no accounting for that money.
And we're dealing with fanatics.
Let me guess ... 12 fanatics .. right?
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Originally Posted by Mircea
In addition to the fact that so many have such a difficult time differentiating between the government, and a dozen or so government employees acting on their own without approval or authority, we have the same problem with the demolition.
People just can't grasp the distinction between a controlled-demolition, and the use of plastic explosives (PBX).
The trouble is, to bring down these buildings .... 3 of them takes a lot of planning. Which really is too much for just 12 people.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
It's called "prior planning."
Wasn't the WTC closed over the weekend prior to September 11?
Yes it was closed. It had the power cut-off, telephone service interrupted, security systems taken off-line and those pesky dog handlers with their bomb sniffing dogs were barred from the premises.
Wasn't there a company in Weehauken, New Jersey called Urban Moving Systems?
Yes, there was.
Weren't there more than 100 Israelis working for Urban Moving Systems?
Yes, there were.
Didn't every single one of those 100+ Israelis enter the US illegally?
Yes, they did.
Didn't they all flee the US after 9-11?
Yes, they did.
Did anyone investigate that?
No. No one investigated it.
More proof of a much wider conspiracy than just a few.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
The New Jersey State Police tried to investigate it, but were bumped off by the FBI. The FBI made a half-assed attempt to investigate. They went to Urban Moving Systems without a warrant. Why? That has to do with the 5 Dancing Israelis who were driving around in an Urban Moving Systems van. The FBI should have gotten a warrant before going the first time. I suspect someone interfered, just as someone interfered in the warrant process to access information on Moussaui's laptop.
The FBI agents were perplexed by the large amount of electronic and computer equipment on the premises for such a simple moving and storage company (which they were able to observe when they first went). They did return with search warrants, but by that time, all of the Israelis who had entered the US illegally had fled the US, and so was all of the electronic and computer equipment.
Moving vans would be a great way to move PBX from off-site to the WTC, and then into the WTC, especially since the Towers were shut down the weekend prior to 9-11.
Don't you all want to know why 100+ Israelis entered the US illegally and were operating a moving and storage company?
Why don't you want to know?
What are you afraid of?
Probably the same thing you are afraid of ... the evidence points to a wide conspiracy involving individuals at the highest posts of the US government, and most people can't reconcile that fact with their image of the world they live in.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
Honestly, I don't know anything about WTC7 other than what appeared in the media on forums. Perhaps one day I'll take the time to look into it, but I don't really need WTC7 to demonstrate a conspiracy.
Funny ... the 911 commission ignored it too, and building 7 is the smoking gun ...no plane hit it, and yet it drops like a stone, straight down in it's own footprint. BBC reported it's demise 25 minutes before it fell ... visibly in the shot behind the reporter claiming it had collapsed. This suggests that a pre-written script was merely executed out of step with proper timing.
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Originally Posted by Mircea
The conspiracy started long before Bush even announced his candidacy. Government employees often engage in conspiracies without knowledge or approval of elected or appointed officials, or of other government employees.
You sure seem intent on getting this message out ... but your argument is a logical fallacy. It doesn't matter whether the plan began 1 year before Bush was elected or 20 years before .... that doesn't prove he didn't know what was to take place on 911 ... as he sat there reading to little school children, as the president of the United States regularly does, right? Can you spell phony photo op?
I'm going to stop here. The highest levels of the government ... Bush and Cheney were involved, as were many of their hand selected cronies. Many others were unwitting assistants with no knowledge of what they were assisting.
How it all happened ... the manner of execution ... who did what and who knew what and when is still, at this moment, pure speculation.
FTR, I recall seeing photos of charred bodies still inside seats in the Pentagon, in addition to photos of numerous demolished aircraft components. Not that this means anything to anyone who already believes it was a missile or something.
More silliness, there has been no challenges from any sector, other than the lunatic fringe, to the conclusions of Popular Mechanics.
Hey if you insist. The reality is that it's brutally unpopular to challenge the conventional narrative on this one. You get called an idiot and a lunatic and naive and all sorts of other stuff from the peanut gallery. I assure you I'm none of those things. This one just doesn't pass the sniff test 10 years later. It still smells like a rat.
On September 16th, NASA flew an airplane over the World Trade Center site, recorded infrared radiation coming from the ground, and created a thermal map. The U.S. Geological Survey analyzed this data, and determined the actual temperature of the rubble. This map shows that five days afterthe collapse of Building 7,the surface temperature of asection of its rubble was1,341º F. This high a temperature is indicative of the use of explosives.
“WTC 7’s rubble pile continued to smolder for months.”
bull. its not indicative of any use of explosives. nice that you don't link to this piece of crap quote.
again, the morons who cling on to the notion that 9/11 was an inside job (whether it was controlled demolitiosn or keebler elves did it) are nothing more than disgusting individuals who rather lie and con you (take your money) than feed you the truth
Even Dylan Avery of Loose Change has admitted that all of his endeavors were all wrong. That Loose change was done because he was "deluded" into thinkin that it was true by those who didn't have his best interest in mind.
when a "leader" like him says that what he did and what he said was FALSE, then that's says much of the BULL by the truthers.
They are fringe and DYING group, looking to dig up the same LONG discredited crap. 10 years later, and they still cling on to hte lies that have been debunked for the last 5 freaking years.
Talk about total desperation. They are not to be pitied anymore. They are meant to be laughed at for the stupid things they believe.
Many of them should be directed to the nearest psychiatrist.
To my knowledge, the official story claims that the aircraft were totally destroyed, with nothing left to "piece together". This is a remarkable set of events, and totally unbelievable,
Some 90+ percent of both planes was recovered in total.
Your "research" is flawed. You need to improve your knowledge
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
These groups are most certainly involved at some significant level.
Unless you can provide credible proof of this, it's just pure conjecture.
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
as those who claim that a government conspiracy would require ten's of thousands of people, yet at the same time believe 19 Arabs and a guy in a cave pulled it off without a hitch,
A fair point, but the "guy in a cave" and his 19 little helpers didn't have to spend months loading the buildings with explosives. They just hijacked planes and crashed them into buildings.
I should also point out that AlQaeda as an organisation consists of much more than a few guys in a cave. they are a hugely organised international organisation, and are funded by some of the richest people in the world.
Indeed, Bin Laden himself was the son of a billionaire.
Much of the "living in caves" stuff is just pure conjecture fed by the media, since many of the actual "warriors" of the group did indeed hideout in caves
the hierarchy, and the "unnamed faceless ones" who ran the organisation would not. They would blend in.
Again, your "research" is flawed
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
it's called disinformation, and it's done all of the time.
You are also giving disinformation, see my responses to your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
And I've never seen such a convoluted conglomeration of fairytale, lies, distortions and implausible story telling as has defined the 911 event. From Scalar Weapons to fire melting steel, we've been bombarded with and conjecture.
And yet, you appear to believe a lot of it, and indeed, requote it and purport it to be fact.
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
but the video evidence of two airliners striking the WTC Towers is a pure fabrication. Pure, UNQUESTIONABLE video trickery, and not very good special effects at that. And anyone with knowledge of video editing and compositing experience can see
Please demonstrate exactly how you believe that "the video evidence" of aircraft was fabricated. Please also demonstrate how the conspiracists could make sure that thousands of cameras, from all sorts of angles, and from all sorts of sources, there's the mainstream media, but what about the members of the public who captured it on their personal cmeras ? were they in on it too ?
What about the eye witnesses ?
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Morever, after looking at this CAREFULLY ... I also began looking at other footage more critically, and much of that was totally fake as well. Fake people, fake live footage from helicopters which show impossible imagry that could only be the result of video compositing of foregrounds and backgrouds ... all of it alleged "Live Network Video"
.
Again, obviously, you'll be able to demonstrate these fakes, won't you ?
Note, please don't just put up a youtube video which someone has uploaded. that isn't demonstration.
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Neither you nor Osama Bin Laden, nor anyone else could execute an operation like 911 with only 12 people.
See my earlier point about the organisation behind the "Alqaeda"
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
drops like a stone, straight down in it's own footprint.
Again with the "into it's own footprint" stuff.
Didn't happen. It fell well outside it's own footprint.
Can you say "misinformation" ?
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
BBC reported it's demise 25 minutes before it fell ... visibly in the shot behind the reporter claiming it had collapsed.
Correct, the BBC did report on it before it happened.
However, the reporter starts her report with "details are very sketchy".
It seems that they were told by the FD that the building had collapsed, when in fact, the building was about to collapse. They got it wrong.
Not the first time the media have made a mistake, and I'm sure it won't be the last.
IIRC, it was the second plane was initially reported to have been a British airways plane.
When the whole story was first reported, it was reported that a small aircraft had struck the tower.
I watched the footage of the Norway bombings and shootings, and many networks were reporting things wrong.
they can only report what they are told untill different information comes forward.
Also, presuming that the BBC knew. And presuming that they weren't the only ones, since apparently all the video footage was faked, so it would have to be planted.
Are you telling me that throughout the whole media, there wasn't one single reporter, or cameraman who wouldn't see this as his chance to win a Pulitzer prize ?
"EXCLUSIVE---- HUGE GOVERNMEMT PLOT REVEALED"
Read more on page two about how the US government intends to kill thousands of it's own citizens......................
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
as he sat there reading to little school children, as the president of the United States regularly does, right? Can you spell phony photo op?
The highest levels of the government ... Bush and Cheney were involved,
And, of course, you'll be able to provide proof of this ? Not just youtube links, or links to truthers sites, credible proof ?
Otherwise it's conjecture.
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Many others were unwitting assistants with no knowledge of what they were assisting.
This is a distinct possibility. People could have been complicit in the events without even knowing, no matter who carried them out.
I actually read the report from the 9/11 Commission report a few years back, and the thing that really ground my gears was the crushing ineptitude that crippled our government in the wake of 9/11. From our dear president sitting there for five minutes looking like goon holding a book about a goat in a room full of eight year olds, to NORAD not knowing that flight 11 had crashed over 45 minutes after the fact... our government and its various agencies had been cruising on autopilot (no pun) for long before 9/11.
This is a pretty good read on it, whether or not you agree with the rest of these guys' site: September 11
One of the best points they make is at the very beginning:
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The tale that unfolds here is long and painful, but important. Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. The list of mistakes made on September 11, 2001, is daunting. But we can't afford to repeat them.
By subscribing to idiotic conspiracy theories that rely on pseudo-scientific explanations from physics-and-demolitions-expert-wannabes sitting behind computers who get their news from chain emails and blogs and patently refusing to accept any rational explanation in favor of believing that a conspiracy of what would be, basically, hundreds of thousands of government operatives was responsible for the act, you are glossing over the staggering idiocy and ineptitude that allowed 9/11 to occur. Personally, I find the notion that a government can be so inept that their failures practically amount to aggression towards their own people to be, quite possibly, more frightening than the notion of an outright, unapologetic police state.
Hey if you insist. The reality is that it's brutally unpopular to challenge the conventional narrative on this one. You get called an idiot and a lunatic and naive and all sorts of other stuff from the peanut gallery. I assure you I'm none of those things. This one just doesn't pass the sniff test 10 years later. It still smells like a rat.
Fortunately the rest of the populace isn't dependent on your olfactory senses, but on facts.
Hey if you insist. The reality is that it's brutally unpopular to challenge the conventional narrative on this one. You get called an idiot and a lunatic and naive and all sorts of other stuff from the peanut gallery.
Because the alternative posed seems a lot like the narratives that we hear about UFO's and black helicopters from guys who search the woods behind their parents' house for evidence of chupacabras.
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