Fox Chapel Schools: Good or Bad? (Pittsburgh, Wall: sales, 2015, apartments)

[icecoldlemonade]

Originally Posted by erieguy

I don't think anyone that can afford $180k for a home is going to have to be concerned with being poor or the poorest.

Sorry to jump in here with a question that sounds totally, impossibly stupid BUT what is considered wealthy around here? Like, what is the income ratio to home price around here? Who is the typical Fox Chapel family?

I've been lurking in this forum for a while because we're considering a move from California, where home prices are astronomical and "diversity" is very different. It is normal to spend $650k on a middle class home but annual trips to the opposite coast to ski or 5k on hockey activities strike me as out of this world. Parsing these different scales of community identity is super disorienting.

[Copanut]

650K is high end around here.

[gladhands]

Originally Posted by Copanut

650K is high end around here.

I'd say 650k is mid-tier in the nicer towns/neighborhoods. 180k isn't that much, even by Pittsburgh standards. While this area is famed for its low cost of living, on the whole, most if the sub-100k houses are of pretty terrible stock, and artificially deflate the average and median housing cost.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by gladhands

I'd say 650k is mid-tier in the nicer towns/neighborhoods. 180k isn't that much, even by Pittsburgh standards. While this area is famed for its low cost of living, on the whole, most if the sub-100k houses are of pretty terrible stock, and artificially deflate the average and median housing cost.

180K will get you a good house in a good suburban neighborhood. If 650K is mid-tier, show where there is an abundance of of 1.3 million K homes. Sub 100K will get you a decent home if you look around.

[gg]

Originally Posted by copanut

180k will get you a good house in a good suburban neighborhood. If 650k is mid-tier, show where there is an abundance of of 1.3 million k homes. Sub 100k will get you a decent home if you look around.

fc

[bluecarebear]

Originally Posted by icecoldlemonade

Sorry to jump in here with a question that sounds totally, impossibly stupid BUT what is considered wealthy around here? Like, what is the income ratio to home price around here? Who is the typical Fox Chapel family?

I've been lurking in this forum for a while because we're considering a move from California, where home prices are astronomical and "diversity" is very different. It is normal to spend $650k on a middle class home but annual trips to the opposite coast to ski or 5k on hockey activities strike me as out of this world. Parsing these different scales of community identity is super disorienting.

Originally Posted by gladhands

I'd say 650k is mid-tier in the nicer towns/neighborhoods. 180k isn't that much, even by Pittsburgh standards. While this area is famed for its low cost of living, on the whole, most if the sub-100k houses are of pretty terrible stock, and artificially deflate the average and median housing cost.

Bingo. Pittsburgh was affordable. I know some who have left or didn't relocate to Pittsburgh because they couldn't find a high paying job. I had a friend not move here because he was going to have to take a $40,000 pay cut. Rents are usually around or over $1000 for a one bedroom in a desirable neighborhood. I agree with 180k not being that much in the county or along the immediate borders. You will find plenty of houses under 180K but those aren't places you would want to live. And the majority of housing is old stock. Don't be surprised if a rental unit is old with annoying quirks, shared utilities, no amenities, and no parking. That is the norm here.

[RogersParkTransplant]

Originally Posted by icecoldlemonade

Sorry to jump in here with a question that sounds totally, impossibly stupid BUT what is considered wealthy around here? Like, what is the income ratio to home price around here? Who is the typical Fox Chapel family?

I've been lurking in this forum for a while because we're considering a move from California, where home prices are astronomical and "diversity" is very different. It is normal to spend $650k on a middle class home but annual trips to the opposite coast to ski or 5k on hockey activities strike me as out of this world. Parsing these different scales of community identity is super disorienting.

I grew up in southern CA, and my whole family is there, so here's my perspective from trying to explain Pittsburgh to my people in San Diego -- sorry if you're from the north and none of this is useful, but here's an attempt to help "orient" you.

Given that Pittsburgh is a very old city (compared to San Diego), the structure of the city is very different. The actual city itself has a lot of neighborhoods that are pretty dense and walkable (comparable to Hillcrest or Adams Avenue in San Diego), and there are a lot of upper middle-class people who are strongly committed to living in the city itself. It is pretty common to own a house dated ca. 1890-1940 in these neighborhoods; there are some grand Victorians and also some snug Craftsman-style houses, some of which are gorgeous and intact and some of which went through incredibly ugly remodels ca. 1960-1990. There is a lot of socio-economic diversity in the city of Pittsburgh: some neighborhoods are truly affluent; some are truly poor; many are an interesting mix with houses that cost $500k situated within three blocks of houses that cost $150k. Some neighborhoods have always been wealthy; others have always been poor; many are "up-and-coming" and changing very fast as the city is experiencing a lot of economic growth, both in the city and in the suburbs.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of steep hills and narrow roads in the city (my brother always compares it to San Francisco in terms of topography, and also all the Victorian row houses), so driving can be a pain, esp in winter. There is reasonably good public transportation (lots of bus lines, one rather basic subway line) but bad traffic, so many people do commute by bus. This is also why people are so invested in walkability -- so you can leave the car at home when the weather is lousy. As for schools, Pittsburgh's public district is a large, complicated mix of options that roughly follow the socioeconomic patterns of the city itself -- very good schools and pretty scary schools depending on the neighborhood, as well as several charter, Catholic, and private options sprinkled everywhere. Lots of parents raise kids in the city. It lines up pretty well with my experience of the San Diego City Schools -- the statistics are not nearly as good as what you'll find for North County (think of Fox Chapel as Pittsburgh's equivalent to the San Dieguito School District, or at least what San Dieguito was 20 years ago), but within the city district there are plenty of students who thrive, go on to great colleges, etc.

Now, your question: what is considered wealthy in Pittsburgh? A huge mansion that looks like a medieval castle, set in a posh neighborhood next to a giant park and/or the universities, will be $2-3 million. A nice family home in a great, safe, family-friendly neighborhood can be anywhere from $300-700k depending on what you really want, with very nice houses easily available n the $350-550 range. A smaller house in a very good neighborhood, or a great house in a "funky" (ie, recently gentrified) neighborhood, can be ca. $200-400k. A fixer-upper in a rapidly gentrifying area, or a modest but livable house in a safe-but-not-fashionable neighborhood can be ca. $80-200k depending on what kind of condition it's in. A brick shell that needs a total gut rehab can still be had for $10k in a dicey neighborhood, but that's less and less common these days.

The suburbs are an equally complicated mosaic. Some of the old "mill towns" are in pretty bad shape since the collapse of the steel industry; a few are making a slow comeback but many are, well, kind of desolate, with lots of abandoned homes with boarded-up windows. The "nice" older suburbs that were built as affluent bedroom communities are doing well for the most part, and the new suburbs are booming -- much like the new developments in southern CA, they often get mocked as soulless etc., but they are generally very nice and people love them. It's more of a car-oriented culture in the newer outer-ring suburbs, but no more so than most of California, and the trade-off is that there is relatively new recent construction available in the city, and what gets built tends to be very expensive.

The disorienting thing about ALL of this is that it's really hard to tell which is which according to a map. Once you're here you start to figure out which parts of the river were polluted by heavy industry, which hilltops have nice views, etc. etc., and you start seeing that flat land is especially prized, because it makes it so much easier to get around. But the bottom line is that it's perfectly possible to buy a great home for a family for about $300k in or near Pittsburgh, and that a family of four can be extremely comfortable on an income of about $80-120k -- if anything that strikes me as a generous number, but I'm sure others on here will have other opinions.

Hope this is useful, and good luck!

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by icecoldlemonade

Sorry to jump in here with a question that sounds totally, impossibly stupid BUT what is considered wealthy around here? Like, what is the income ratio to home price around here? Who is the typical Fox Chapel family?

I've been lurking in this forum for a while because we're considering a move from California, where home prices are astronomical and "diversity" is very different. It is normal to spend $650k on a middle class home but annual trips to the opposite coast to ski or 5k on hockey activities strike me as out of this world. Parsing these different scales of community identity is super disorienting.

Here are my thoughts. The typical Fox Chapel family, meaning the Borough, not the School District, makes a ton of money. Good chance that they have at least one of these, have a kid in private school, belong to a country club or have an expensive car in the driveway. By ton of money I would say at least 225,000. Our teachers top out at 90,000 or so to put it in perspective. Realistically, for a decent house in Fox Chapel you are probably looking at 450,000 and up and chances are you aren't happy with the 450,000 house. Really have to spend between 800,000-1,000,000 (you clearly aren't making 225,000 if you buying one of these) to get it all Sure there are some that are less but most have issues.

Kids activities are pretty expensive these days and are never ending. Hockey starts at 2000 plus equipment. A friend has spent 9000 so far. and he has two months left in the season. And that only includes part of his gas. Fancy soccer and lacrosse teams are 2000 exclusive of clinics and travel costs. Vacations are fairly common and expensive. Again, kids activities and vacations are really where you notice the difference between the middle class and the affluent. The affluent take multiple vacations a year. And it seems as if every other family skis a fair amount. That is an expensive sport.

Now, some of the the surrounding townships that also feed to the Fox Chapel Area School District have nice homes which are bigger, newer and cheaper (and not as close to the high school) and they also have much smaller and cheaper homes. Families in the Fox Chapel School District are really fairly diverse economically.

[Paul2421]

Originally Posted by gladhands

I'd say 650k is mid-tier in the nicer towns/neighborhoods. 180k isn't that much, even by Pittsburgh standards. While this area is famed for its low cost of living, on the whole, most if the sub-100k houses are of pretty terrible stock, and artificially deflate the average and median housing cost.

This is one of the most ridiculous thing I have seen on this sub. It is easy to find a nice 3bd 2bd house in the NASD for example for around 300k.

[gladhands]

Originally Posted by lettert

This is one of the most ridiculous thing I have seen on this sub. It is easy to find a nice 3bd 2bd house in the NASD for example for around 300k.

And it would be on the low end of houses in that district.