Philadelphia 2035 (rules, room, rumors)

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by rotodome

I don't think the immediate or best solution for Camden is to try to bring jobs/industry to Camden. The solution is improving the transit connection to Center City.

The apt comparison for Camden is not "formerly run down neighborhoods in Brooklyn with skyline views" (as someone said earlier in this thread), it's Jersey City.
Jersey City capitalized on an easy rail one-stop rail connection to lower Manhattan. People moved there for that. and then service businesses followed, and further development spread from that initial foothold. Sure it has nice views of the skyline too, but without the convenient transit, a nice view isn't worth much.

Granted, CC could use some more jobs itself, as a lot people already live there just because it's a great place to live, and commute to work elsewhere. For this reason I don't think a ton of people are going to live in Camden for an easy commute to work. But adjacency to the buzz of CC is of great importance to developing its surrounding neighborhoods, and I think this is probably Camden's best bet.

PATCO already has very similar access actually, job demand on both side is the issue

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

There are 3 PATCO stops in Camden, City Hall, Broadway, & Ferry Ave. Ferry Ave is walking distance to Lourdes & spitting distance from Collingwood. It's not horrible. Money is going in there. They need to identify the other pockets that are decent & liveable & expand them. If they keep doing that they can make headway. They aren't going to get anywhere by putting up expensive buildings on the waterfront. Then there's the issue of the schools. . .

Believe it or not, I actually wrote a thesis on downtown Camden. Specifically about why the (then proposed) 90's waterfront development wasn't going to help Camden.
And this round of waterfront development won't either if it follows the model of isolating the waterfront from the city, and not focusing on the existing transit connection.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by rotodome

Believe it or not, I actually wrote a thesis on downtown Camden. Specifically about why the (then proposed) 90's waterfront development wasn't going to help Camden.
And this round of waterfront development won't either if it follows the model of isolating the waterfront from the city, and not focusing on the existing transit connection.

If jobs and development come and flow back under your thesis/idea could it chamge - this seem to at least bring jobs instead of driver in and out (albeit most would probably drive to work)

I agree that an isolated development does nothing to bring development/improvement in a nutshell but could something like this and the Campbells (even moreisolated) bookended bring in fill and development. I still think the reason why Camden has not developmed like JC or Hobiken (moreso JC as Hoboken had better bones existing) is because Philly overall is not the draw that NYC is More jobs will bring more people and the location would develop organically if the demand were there in the first place

[phillies2011]

Originally Posted by kyb01

It's still a big gamble. Carl Dranoff couldn't entirely make it work. Maybe they can.

It's a huge gamble. Still far from certain that it will even happen, much less that it will work.

My point is simply that the position that can be summed up as "Camden is irredeemable sh*thole that no one will ever want to live in" is dead wrong. There are still many challenges ahead for Camden but the big change in the viability of Camden's future technically has nothing to do with Camden itself and instead has to do with the resurgence of Center City.

Camden as nearby commuter city to Philadelphia with nice views of the skyline never made sense when Center City itself was filled with vacant lots. Why move to Camden when there was still plenty of affordable options in Center City itself. That is of course no longer the case. Not only has Center City grown and gotten more expensive at incredibly rapid pace, but young professionals are now even being priced out of adjacent neighborhoods in Northern Liberties and Bella Vista. We are currently living in a Philadelphia in which Kensington, Point Breeze and Brewerytown are rapidly gentrifying. Camden arguably has better amenities and just as easy if not an easier commute to Center City than any of those neighborhoods.

Is this a no-doubt slam dunk? Absolutely not. But it's hardly the far off gamble than some on this forum are trying to make it out to be. Brewerytown hasn't spent decades on lists of America's most crime ridden cities, it doesn't have nearly the stigma that Camden does. But if you look at solely the logistics of the situation, gentrification in Brewerytown is arguably a much tougher sell than Camden and yet no one has any issue with the large scale investment and development going on there.

In time people will come to understand that he negative perception of Camden is largely that, perception. It's really not that different or worse off than dozens of formerly industrial communities in the Philadelphia metro that lost their jobs and saw large increases in crime. Once people get past that stigma, they can see the boundless potential of Camden that Liberty, Dranoff and others have recognized over the years. It won't be a smooth road forward, but the road in Camden is undoubtedly moving in the right direction now. Although I don't hold out much hope that some of the more hardheaded members of this forum will ever recognize that.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by rotodome

Believe it or not, I actually wrote a thesis on downtown Camden. Specifically about why the (then proposed) 90's waterfront development wasn't going to help Camden.
And this round of waterfront development won't either if it follows the model of isolating the waterfront from the city, and not focusing on the existing transit connection.

The Lourdes project is the first sign of sanity in decades.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/new-j...endly-tod.html

The link that the thread started with: Camden Primed for Pedestrian-Friendly TOD | Mobilizing the Region

The developer's website.

Haddon Avenue Transit Village | Coopers Ferry

This area is not horrible.

I'm sorry, but they have to go into the residential pockets & expand them as well as this area. Downtown needs a customer base. they have to regrow one.

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

If jobs and development come and flow back under your thesis/idea could it chamge - this seem to at least bring jobs instead of driver in and out (albeit most would probably drive to work)

I agree that an isolated development does nothing to bring development/improvement in a nutshell but could something like this and the Campbells (even moreisolated) bookended bring in fill and development. I still think the reason why Camden has not developmed like JC or Hobiken (moreso JC as Hoboken had better bones existing) is because Philly overall is not the draw that NYC is More jobs will bring more people and the location would develop organically if the demand were there in the first place

I think you're largely right about that.
But also, Philadelphia in 2015 is a very different city than the Philadelphia of 1991. People increasingly want to live and work in walkable downtown areas, and people increasingly want to be in and around Center City. Investment in Camden has to capitalize on this stuff if it's going to make a real difference. If a new investment in waterfront development is to be made, it should not be done in the same dysfunctional way it was done in the 90's.
If it's going to be done it should be done right. It should be looking to the future, and take proper advantage of Camden's location and subway connection to Philly. Not separate the development from the city with an ocean of desolate parking lots, but integrate the waterfront, the subway connections, and the business district.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by rotodome

I think you're largely right about that.
But also, Philadelphia in 2015 is a very different city than the Philadelphia of 1991. People increasingly want to live and work in walkable downtown areas, and people increasingly want to be in and around Center City. Investment in Camden has to capitalize on this stuff if it's going to make a real difference. If a new investment in waterfront development is to be made, it should not be done in the same dysfunctional way it was done in the 90's.
If it's going to be done it should be done right. It should be looking to the future, and take proper advantage of Camden's location and subway connection to Philly. Not separate the development from the city with an ocean of desolate parking lots, but integrate the waterfront, the subway connections, and the business district.

If the development around Lady of Lordes works they can expand to Cramer Hill which has slid in recent yesrs, & a couple of other neighborhoods in east Camden. If they enlarge the decent pockets where the city employees live they will be making significant progress. if they can then push towards the downtown & waterfront they can cut the decay in half. East Camden continued to have some stability but the officials continually dumped the money on the waterfront and failed to shore up the last neighborhoods that hadn't gone to hell in a handbasket. At least 3 mayors in a row became residents of the state prison system for corruption.

If they can cut a swath through the middle they can work to the north & to the south of that area & stand a chance. They also need to stabilize Mt Ephraim Ave near where Pathmark was. Then there's the issue of the schools. City employees were using Catholic schools, regardless of their own religion. Check out Camden High & Woodrow Wilson HS & you'll understand why.

The latest proposal for the waterfront probably includes space for Subaru. Those people are not going to move to Camden. They are already established in the area.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

If the development around Lady of Lordes works they can expand to Cramer Hill which has slid in recent yesrs, & a couple of other neighborhoods in east Camden. If they enlarge the decent pockets where the city employees live they will be making significant progress. if they can then push towards the downtown & waterfront they can cut the decay in half. East Camden continued to have some stability but the officials continually dumped the money on the waterfront and failed to shore up the last neighborhoods that hadn't gone to hell in a handbasket. At least 3 mayors in a row became residents of the state prison system for corruption.

If they can cut a swath through the middle they can work to the north & to the south of that area & stand a chance. They also need to stabilize Mt Ephraim Ave near where Pathmark was. Then there's the issue of the schools. City employees were using Catholic schools, regardless of their own religion. Check out Camden High & Woodrow Wilson HS & you'll understand why.

The latest proposal for the waterfront probably includes space for Subaru. Those people are not going to move to Camden. They are already established in the area.

Subaru of America is building its new HQ in a sea of parking in the Gateway development on the other side of downtown. This is the complex being master-planned by Brandywine Realty Trust for Campbell Soup.

In essence, it's a reproduction of what it has on Cherry Hill, only larger and with more parking. Not really what I'd consider a contributor to Camden's revival beyond adding to the tax base eventually.

[Pine to Vine]

Possible movement at the National in Old City: New Ventures In Old City

[Redddog]

I was JUST walking by that place 2 days ago and said to my wife "what the hell are they gonna do with this eyesore?"

cool.