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Wow. So the fact that her classmates encouraged her to say hell and she did now makes it scary that she can vote? Why? I find that rather absurd and paranoid to be honest.
Just wondering what you think about this school's mascot being a "Red Devil"? Does the Principal or Superintendent care about the people they have offended with that name? Should they issue a formal letter of apology to those who they have offended? Do they really think that they hold the "moral high ground" and are justified in their current actions of withholding the valedictorian's diploma for using a word that very few people find offensive?
Yah, there are high schools in my area with mascots of Demons, Warriors, Indians, Chiefs and Rebels, just to name a few. I'd say the case for offensive-ness is MUCH stronger for those (and this girl's high school mascot the Red Devil) than a girl saying "hell" in her speech.
I think we are just going to have to say that you and I are seeing different things in the whole scenario. You are fixated on the word "hell". I believe that the word itself is not the issue. The issue is the behavior.
The behavior was childish. It was something she decided to do after her classmates spurred her on. It contributed nothing to her speech. She did it because she could.
What you allow your two year old to hear and repeat is up to you. You do not get to say things to your neighbor's child that your neighbor does not want to hear her two year old repeat. Want to use the f-bomb and laugh when your two year old says it repeatedly, fine. Say it in front of my grand daughter, and you will get called on it.
By the way, not every school names a valedictorian. So yes, it is an honor that the school chooses to bestow. It could choose not to, and I would not be a bit surprised if it chooses not to do so next year.
The scary thing is that if she is eighteen, she can vote.
Just wondering what you think about this school's mascot being a "Red Devil"? Does the Principal or Superintendent care about the people they have offended with that name? Should they issue a formal letter of apology to those who they have offended? Do they really think that they hold the "moral high ground" and are justified in their current actions of withholding the valedictorian's diploma for using a word that very few people find offensive?
You're talking to someone whose high school mascot was the Blue Devil. I think devils make fine mascots. As I understand it, the controversy about the mascot had more to do with "red" than "devil."
Again, everyone is keying on the word used. I am not. The word does not offend me. Since we do not have the school's side of the controversy, we do not know why the diploma was withheld. Why was it even necessary to ask her to submit her speech ahead of time? Was that just to make sure she was prepared? Should that be necessary for someone with a GPA of 4.0? Surely she could be trusted to prepare a short speech for graduation. Have students in the past said inappropriate things? Have students in the past turned the podium into a pulpit and used it for religious testimony? Was she specifically told not to use "hell" and agreed not to use it? Did she originally use the entire quote from the movie and was told it was inappropriate for her audience? Was she specifically told no four letter words? We do not know. All we know is she led the school to believe she would be saying one thing, and, encouraged by her classmates, she deliberately changed it to something she knew was probably not going to sit well with the school administration. Why else would she consult her classmates for their opinions?
If she did not think the school authorities would mind her saying "hell", why was it not in the original script?
Maybe her school has an honor code. Those usually start out "I will not lie ... " Telling the principal she was going to use "heck" and then not doing so was, in fact a lie and possibly an honor code violation.
How would you feel if your six year old came home from school and said he asked his teacher a question and her answer was, "Hell, I don't know?" I would consider that inappropriate, even if it was said in jest. Would you?
Until we know more, I side with the principal on this one.
How would you feel if your six year old came home from school and said he asked his teacher a question and her answer was, "Hell, I don't know?" I would consider that inappropriate, even if it was said in jest. Would you?
I wouldn't give it a second thought. It's a totally harmless word that has been artificially elevated to the level of offensive, and recently at that. I don't think one can say it wasn't the word, it's the principle of straying from the draft. Do you really think that if she had substituted the work "humbug" for "heck" there would have been an issue?
I think we are just going to have to say that you and I are seeing different things in the whole scenario. You are fixated on the word "hell". I believe that the word itself is not the issue. The issue is the behavior.
If she'da promised to say "I don't know" in her speech but said "I really don't know" instead, there would be no story. So of course it's about the word.
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
The behavior was childish. It was something she decided to do after her classmates spurred her on.
Again, you are assuming intentions where they might not be. She didn't say or suggest they "spurred her on"; she said that she talked it over with her classmates and they said 'no, go ahead and say it'. It could've been "Yeah, stick it to the man!" or it could've been "I really don't see that big a difference between 'hell' and 'heck'. Can't imagine anyone getting upset by that." To be honest, I would've given similar advice. I don't think it's her who was childish; I think it was the principal for looking past the context the word was used in and jumping at the fact that she said a "bad word". That's how kids are, IME. If they hear a word they think is special, you can forget about having a conversation with them.
However, I must say even children are unlikely to bat an eye at this word in this context... which puts the principal waaaaayy down there
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
It contributed nothing to her speech. She did it because she could.
So? Like I said, it was supposed to be a joyous, relaxed occasion. Perfectly normal for people giving graduation speeches to turn informal in their duration, especially at the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
What you allow your two year old to hear and repeat is up to you. You do not get to say things to your neighbor's child that your neighbor does not want to hear her two year old repeat. Want to use the f-bomb and laugh when your two year old says it repeatedly, fine. Say it in front of my grand daughter, and you will get called on it.
Big difference between "the f-bomb" and the word "hell", especially in this situation. And I wouldn't have to worry about my two-year old repeating this word if he hears in this context, because it just doesn't stand out. Kids who are old enough to pick this word out of the sentence this girl used it in are also old enough to know how (and how not to) use it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
By the way, not every school names a valedictorian. So yes, it is an honor that the school chooses to bestow.
And the schools that choose to "bestow" this honor should understand the concept. That it isn't about picking someone who will owe you some degree of respect in turn because you chose them; it's about recognizing academic excellence. The greed in some people! They want to glean respect from another any way they can, even for the act of assigning titles to other people who have actually earned it. *shakes head* Shame, shame...
I wouldn't give it a second thought. It's a totally harmless word that has been artificially elevated to the level of offensive, and recently at that. I don't think one can say it wasn't the word, it's the principle of straying from the draft. Do you really think that if she had substituted the work "humbug" for "heck" there would have been an issue?
But some people do consider the way she used it to be offensive, do they not?
I have repeatedly said I do not think the word is the issue.
As I told Dorthy, we are missing the school's side of the story. If she was specifically told not to use it (and I kind of think she probably was), then it was wrong of her to do so.
I suspect she wanted to recite the speech from the movie, if you want to know the truth, and I think she was told not to. If she agreed not to and paraphrased the movie speech, using "heck", in her submitted script, then she broke her word. I suspect that is the point the principal is trying to make.
The other possibility is that there were parents who did not like the use of the word itself and made that known to the principal. Is he supposed to defend her use of it after she blind sided him? I think not. She showed poor judgment and did not consider the effect on her audience.
Why is that scary? Because she can think for herself?
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Originally Posted by strawflower
Wow. So the fact that her classmates encouraged her to say hell and she did now makes it scary that she can vote? Why? I find that rather absurd and paranoid to be honest.
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Originally Posted by Jaggy001
Now you are just being silly
But she had to consult her classmates. She was not thinking for herself, was she? Is she going to make her choice for president based on, like, what her classmates think?
If she'da promised to say "I don't know" in her speech but said "I really don't know" instead, there would be no story. So of course it's about the word.
The media has made the story about the word. The principal's intent in asking her to apologize could very well hinge on whether she did it after specifically being told not to use four letter words.
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Again, you are assuming intentions where they might not be. She didn't say or suggest they "spurred her on"; she said that she talked it over with her classmates and they said 'no, go ahead and say it'. It could've been "Yeah, stick it to the man!" or it could've been "I really don't see that big a difference between 'hell' and 'heck'. Can't imagine anyone getting upset by that." To be honest, I would've given similar advice. I don't think it's her who was childish; I think it was the principal for looking past the context the word was used in and jumping at the fact that she said a "bad word". That's how kids are, IME. If they hear a word they think is special, you can forget about having a conversation with them.
It seems you are the one making assumptions. I am going by her own words, as quoted in her comment to NBC. If she had to ask her classmates' opinions, she knew it would not make the principal happy.
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However, I must say even children are unlikely to bat an eye at this word in this context... which puts the principal waaaaayy down there
But it might have not gone over well with the parents of those children, who expected a "G" rated speech and got more than they bargained for.
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So? Like I said, it was supposed to be a joyous, relaxed occasion. Perfectly normal for people giving graduation speeches to turn informal in their duration, especially at the end.
She was not being "informal." She knew what the principal's reaction would be. She just thought she could get away with it with no consequences.
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Big difference between "the f-bomb" and the word "hell", especially in this situation. And I wouldn't have to worry about my two-year old repeating this word if he hears in this context, because it just doesn't stand out. Kids who are old enough to pick this word out of the sentence this girl used it in are also old enough to know how (and how not to) use it.
But you do not get to make that distinction for other parents, who may not feel as you do.
Quote:
And the schools that choose to "bestow" this honor should understand the concept. That it isn't about picking someone who will owe you some degree of respect in turn because you chose them; it's about recognizing academic excellence. The greed in some people! They want to glean respect from another any way they can, even for the act of assigning titles to other people who have actually earned it. *shakes head* Shame, shame...
Turn about is fair play. If I offer you respect and recognition for your academic achievement, you should in turn offer me respect for doing so. Instead she stabbed the principal in the back. Very nice.
The scary thing is that if she is eighteen, she can vote.
You bet she can and she is exactly the person I want in the booth. She's also old enough to serve her country in the armed forces and work a full time job.
Sounds like you want "Yes" women in the booth. I want women who are strong, smart, independent and who studied hard enough to earn being the valedictorian of her class. I don't give a rats ass that she "broke her word" to an uptight system that has deemed hell to be a bad word.
And yes, I AM a hippie Boomer and it was my generation that made sure she'd have a right to BE in that voting booth.
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I think devils make fine mascots. As I understand it, the controversy about the mascot had more to do with "red" than "devil."
