why do people move back up north after moving down south? (Fayetteville: high school, car inspection)
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^^^well, for starters, it is nowhere near as dramatic as children being bused to "the other side of town"; its more like being bused to the next district over. Durham isnt a small town. This is what I mean when I say northerners have a habit of bad perception and/or assumptions and/or stereotypes about the South, although I hear nothing malicious in your comments. You've heard that the busing and zoning is different, and you perpetuate a notion that that means communities are broken up because of this, and children are sent way across town. I dont know how to describe it to someone not familiar with it, but I did my last year of high school in North Carolina. I do follow your line of thinking in how this 'could' affect the sense of community--but it doesn't affect the sense of community, not slightly...
Sure, costs went down with redistricting--but do not even try to trick yourself into believing that is the overall factor. That was a benefit. The political pressure in the climate (eg civil rights for blacks) of the 60s and 70s to attempt to afford a better education to majority black school districts could only happen one way--by sending more white children into these schools. As elementary as it sounds, the funding just is not available or given at the same rate to black schools, whether they are urban or rural. But more attention is given, and more likely to receive money and help the higher a percentage of white students there are. We can go into numerous reasons why this exists, but that is just a fact of life that is understood to people from cities with these issues...
Speaking in ethnic terms specifically, it is more celebrated in the North than in the South. A few neighborhoods and other examples notwithstanding, in the South if you're white, you're white. There is no special distinctions or ceremonies given publicly to being Greek/Italian/German/Russian, etc, besides the normal civic or private organizations. And likewise, if you're black, you're black, same goes for Jamaican/West Indian/African, whatever. So this affects the dimensions and how one from up north could perceive the sense of community...
I had to laugh about your brother's comment about Hampton Roads. Politically, that oppression and "good ole boy" shtick against blacks (and other minorities) at the higher positions up the totem pole exist for blacks nationwide, no? Now, while a higher poverty rate may exist in Hampton Roads blacks (not even sure if it does, though) the Syracuse metro could never be compared to Hampton Roads equally in terms of black wealth, black-owned businesses, blacks in positions of power. Ditto for if you're wanting to compare Syracuse city against the cities of Hampton Roads, but especially Norfolk, Hampton, and Newport News. There is plenty of black representation in nearly any field you wanna discuss, but there is rarely if ever equality for blacks in public positions anywhere, in comparison to whites. That is not a problem unique to Hampton Roads, so like you, I am not sure where your brother is going with this...
A final statement in regards to race as it applies to North/South. Take into account that the Southern Tier of NY is the most rural area I've ever lived in. I'm from Richmond, I've lived in metro DC, Memphis, inner-city Fayetteville NC, amongst other places. While I've encountered racism in different areas throughout my life, I haven't experienced it as much as in NY. That isn't to say that I get it every time I walk out the door. The urban South is largely devoid of the upfront/blatant racism the old South experienced. Upstate NY is full of that upfront racism, but it is masked and veiled because a)many more neighborhoods are integrated here, so surface analysis would say that there can't be race issues in areas where whites and minorities generally live next door to each other; b)people are ignorant to what they don't know. Aside from the major cities of the state, the communities of NY are largely very small in black and/or other minority population, so it creates the environment for if not racism, for prejudices to exist and build, because people in these areas do not live amongst or work or encounter black in large numbers; and c)there is more black/white dating here than anywhere I've ever been in my life. People thinking inside the box would cite that as evidence that there isn't racism here. But all of my black family here are mixed with whites. It very much exists here...
My point "a" does apply to the major cities here, as I've grown very familiar, from a visitor's perspective, to Albany, and have met many people from all of the major cities, black and white, living in this area. If you don't know what to look for, you can't see it, and otherwise aren't aware of something if you do see or hear it...
@ss20ts, I'll start out by pointing out that NYC isn't the "only" world-class city in the country, because if that is so, then we're saying there are only five or so world class cities on the planet. America has some of the best cities in the world, so that needs no further comment...and dude, I'm from Virginia. It is definitely arguable that that state has the richest historical contributions to this country. All the attributes you listed for NY, someone from any other state could start reeling off lists of equally compelling attributes. There is nothing wrong with hometown voyeurism, and I love New York as well, but we'd be arguing all day and never reach a consensus if we start talking about which states are better than the other....
It could be excusable for a person from NYC to view themselves as above the world. I mean, not really . But someone born and raised there having that opinion is more understandable than someone from Rome or Batavia or Fredonia or Buffalo having that opinion...
^When discussing the sense of community, I'm addressing it in terms of how others may see it in comparison. I think people see busing or the changing of schools as a disruption of that, as an example. I also just through Durham County in there, as I'm not sure about how they do things, but this has been an issue in nearby Wake County(Raleigh).
Wake County, which became a county SD in 1976, didn't come easy. It's plan to consolidate the mostly Black Raleigh City SD and other Wake County SD's due to "White Flight", etc. was met with defeat in a vote. This merger was eventually pushed through in spite of that vote. Read the history portion here: Wake County Public School System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So, there is an economic factor involved in this as well with the consolidation into county SD's.
I agree that the example given of representation could be in any or most areas and can vary due to demographics. It isn't to compare, but to understand how or what is being said. Major Upstate NY cities are more on par with Southern cities in Black percentages than people think. For instance, Rochester and Norfolk are roughly the same percentage Black: US2010
As we know, the difference is the percentages outside of the cities and in turn, I think what is being said is that the widespread presence of said folks would garner a higher volume of representation given the demographics. With that said, the argument can be made that this is a national thing.
Given the examples of places lived the post, I also think it could be a matter of being in an area where most or even an overwhelming percentage of the people may look like you. So, it may insulate people from seeing it in their face until they get in an area where it is different. That doesn't mean that the racial issues aren't there but you don't necessarily see it up front in a way it becomes conscious to you. It is like the difference between my father's experience growing up in segregation in the Mississippi Delta in the 40's, 50's to the mid 60's and mine growing up in suburban Syracuse in the 80's and 90's. For him, it was different in that the town was overwhelmingly Black and that was his world view, in a sense, because that was his day to day in spite of what structural and general social aspects were going on. For me, it was different not only being from a suburb up here, but it wasn't even one of the more relatively diverse suburbs in the area. So, in that case, you are going to be more aware of it, but also you see how it isn't all encompassing either. Meaning, that you see the balance within the larger society. If I grew up in say Buffalo's East Side, Rochester's inner SW or NE sides or Syracuse's South Side, it might be a bit different given the demographics in those areas or even more diverse, stable areas up here.
Elmira has been known for being pretty integrated and for interracial couples/relationships. I think that has to do with its history as an Underground Railroad city and relative to Northern cities of its size, its Black percentage has been relatively higher, historically. Numbers may also be a factor in terms of families, if you think about it, too. There are other cities/towns like that up here as well, to some or a lesser degree.
^^^agreed on generally everything. The consolidation of Wake County schools is something I am familiar with and confirms the point that the agenda of the time was largely integration...
Also agreed that one's world view is formed from who and what you are around growing up, and what you are exposed to, and holds true to people everywhere...
I did say, though, that I encountered racism growing up, not that it didn't exist. But it wasn't as often as I've experienced here, and I listed the reasons why. The only area where I lived in an area and went to school with a large black population was when I was in Carolina, as my school was around 80-85% black, and that was only because of busing children from Fort Bragg, because my actual neighborhood was close to 100% black, at least 95%. I grew up in the suburbs like yourself, in suburban Richmond, in one of the more diverse suburbs at that, and lived in suburban Memphis in an area (Southaven) that ten years ago was overwhelmingly white, around 85%, as compared to how it is today. I think my world view was formed from having a childhood in which I moved around several times; I claim Richmond as my hometown because the majority of my schooling was there, but I only lived there for 8 years. I got a chance to experience urban and suburban life, as in Southaven it abuts Memphis directly and my mother's family all lived in the city, and had a childhood where I didn't grow up around majority anybody....at any rate, my initial statement about the limited world view of Upstaters is based upon everywhere that I'm familiar with and have a working knowledge of its people, and should not be read as that these type of people do not exist anywhere else. They do, but I find in fewer number, and those type of people are treated differently and somewhat outcast into their own net of like-minded individuals from the rest of the populace. And it shouldn't be interpreted that I'm saying the ignorance here encompasses the majority of New Yorkers, just that I believe it is more here in relation to where I've been and people are not treated differently because of that...
Elmira is the first place I would start when I'm describing race relations in NY. It is fairly integrated--but there is only 30,000 people here, and of that 30 less than 5 of us (15%) are black, so how integrated is it, actually? Being black here means you're living around majority whites anywhere you go; there is no majority black neighborhood anywhere in the Southern Tier, and you have to get to Syracuse or Rochester to experience that level of black culture....but Elmira would just be the start of that argument, because this northern integration is not much different in the larger cities, except that MORE blacks moved there than here. I do not want to derail the thread topic any further off course than it already is, because that was not my intention....
Your father may be a little older than my grandfather (who was born in '48), but where is he from? My grandfather is from Mississippi as well, and he and his entire family came here in the 60s, my grandfather being amongst the last wave of them to arrive in '68. My grandfather comes from a large family of 6 males and 2 sisters, and everyone but one relocated here, including their mother, who died in 2010. Only one never came, and that was the oldest child (the oldest girl), and only one ever went back south, and he died shortly thereafter in the 80s, childless. Only 3 are still remaining, my grandfather, one brother, and the other girl, and my family, I would guess, makes up a pretty decent chunk of the black population of Elmira and Corning. Only other place I even have relatives anywhere else in the state is first cousin of my mother's who moved to Buffalo and started a family there...
^^^agreed on generally everything. The consolidation of Wake County schools is something I am familiar with and confirms the point that the agenda of the time was largely integration...
Also agreed that one's world view is formed from who and what you are around growing up, and what you are exposed to, and holds true to people everywhere...
I did say, though, that I encountered racism growing up, not that it didn't exist. But it wasn't as often as I've experienced here, and I listed the reasons why. The only area where I lived in an area and went to school with a large black population was when I was in Carolina, as my school was around 80-85% black, and that was only because of busing children from Fort Bragg, because my actual neighborhood was close to 100% black, at least 95%. I grew up in the suburbs like yourself, in suburban Richmond, in one of the more diverse suburbs at that, and lived in suburban Memphis in an area (Southaven) that ten years ago was overwhelmingly white, around 85%, as compared to how it is today. I think my world view was formed from having a childhood in which I moved around several times; I claim Richmond as my hometown because the majority of my schooling was there, but I only lived there for 8 years. I got a chance to experience urban and suburban life, as in Southaven it abuts Memphis directly and my mother's family all lived in the city, and had a childhood where I didn't grow up around majority anybody....at any rate, my initial statement about the limited world view of Upstaters is based upon everywhere that I'm familiar with and have a working knowledge of its people, and should not be read as that these type of people do not exist anywhere else. They do, but I find in fewer number, and those type of people are treated differently and somewhat outcast into their own net of like-minded individuals from the rest of the populace. And it shouldn't be interpreted that I'm saying the ignorance here encompasses the majority of New Yorkers, just that I believe it is more here in relation to where I've been and people are not treated differently because of that...
Elmira is the first place I would start when I'm describing race relations in NY. It is fairly integrated--but there is only 30,000 people here, and of that 30 less than 5 of us (15%) are black, so how integrated is it, actually? Being black here means you're living around majority whites anywhere you go; there is no majority black neighborhood anywhere in the Southern Tier, and you have to get to Syracuse or Rochester to experience that level of black culture....but Elmira would just be the start of that argument, because this northern integration is not much different in the larger cities, except that MORE blacks moved there than here. I do not want to derail the thread topic any further off course than it already is, because that was not my intention....
Your father may be a little older than my grandfather (who was born in '48), but where is he from? My grandfather is from Mississippi as well, and he and his entire family came here in the 60s, my grandfather being amongst the last wave of them to arrive in '68. My grandfather comes from a large family of 6 males and 2 sisters, and everyone but one relocated here, including their mother, who died in 2010. Only one never came, and that was the oldest child (the oldest girl), and only one ever went back south, and he died shortly thereafter in the 80s, childless. Only 3 are still remaining, my grandfather, one brother, and the other girl, and my family, I would guess, makes up a pretty decent chunk of the black population of Elmira and Corning. Only other place I even have relatives anywhere else in the state is first cousin of my mother's who moved to Buffalo and started a family there...
Interesting...My father is from a small town in Holmes County by the name of Tchula. It has about 2100 people and is 95% Black. He was born in '46 and came to Syracuse in 1965. Before that though, his grandmother(my great grandmother) came to Syracuse in the early 1920's and his uncle basically grew up here. My dad came from a family of 19, but many died young and similar to your family, all of them are pretty much up here. So, I knew of 6 aunts and 2 uncles with all of them still in the area.
Was one of your parents in the military then? I was thinking Air Force due to where you were born and there is an AFB near Ft. Bragg.
To get back on topic, I can see what you are saying though. Interestingly, Elmira's percentage is just above the national average, but it sounds like it is a matter of organizations starting something there. Most of the cultural aspects would be in the bigger areas or perhaps in some smaller areas/cities like Auburn, Ithaca, Niagara Falls, etc.
Also, I think this back and forth is important for people to see, especially if they are considering moving to the South, because there is a cultural aspect that people should think about when moving there and how it relates to their current surroundings. Same for people that may move up here, as the dynamics will be different as well.
Haha, both my parents were in the Army. Well, my mother was a Coast Guard-to-Army transition, but interestingly enough to some people, that is not the reason I moved around so often, as it is with other military families. During my whole adolescence, we moved three times because of reassignments--from Fort McNair to Fort Belvoir, which is a roughly 30-40 minute drive so its not like we moved very far away, and from Fort Belvoir to Fort Lee, which is about 2 hrs and some change, and finally to Fort Bragg my senior of high school. We only lived on military post once, briefly at Fort Belvoir in Nova before my parents got their first place together in Woodbridge.....
Originally, I'm from California. I was born in Sacramento and both of my biological's still live there. I have three brothers there, and a sister who lives in Tucson AZ, all from my biological mother, and I'm the only child of my biological father. I haven't been back to Sacramento since I was an infant, although I spent my first grade school year in Los Angeles living with my dad's sister. I did go back to LA to visit in my teenage years...
My parents (the military ones), long story short, also come from weird, broken families, and my mother is from Memphis. She was born in my grandparents' hometown of Walls, in Desoto County Mississippi. I spent my 8th grade year in Southaven/Memphis as my grandmother had a very bad heart attack, and my mother felt she needed to be there, so she took me and my brother with her and my dad stayed in VA...
I've never been that far south in the Sip to where your father is from; I haven't been south of Grenada. But I have been to Marion, which is essentially where your mother is from, and am very familiar with the neighboring county of Dillon...
I love Auburn! There is an unusual amount of pretty chicks there for a town that size, but I find that the black culture is no different there than here. And I know Ithaca like the back of my hand, there is even less of a black culture to speak of there, but its about the same here. Elmira/Ithaca/Binghamton, in terms of the people, are roughly the same, although Elmira is certainly the less educated of the three, and Ithaca is certainly the most eclectic and refined of the group. Notwithstanding the lack of blacks, Ithaca is an extremely fun town, and I've considered moving there, but the cost of living from just there to here is off the charts. I've worked with several people who live here and commute there, as well as vice-versa...
[quote=murksiderock;30057594]Haha, both my parents were in the Army. Well, my mother was a Coast Guard-to-Army transition, but interestingly enough to some people, that is not the reason I moved around so often, as it is with other military families. During my whole adolescence, we moved three times because of reassignments--from Fort McNair to Fort Belvoir, which is a roughly 30-40 minute drive so its not like we moved very far away, and from Fort Belvoir to Fort Lee, which is about 2 hrs and some change, and finally to Fort Bragg my senior of high school. We only lived on military post once, briefly at Fort Belvoir in Nova before my parents got their first place together in Woodbridge.....
Originally, I'm from California. I was born in Sacramento and both of my biological's still live there. I have three brothers there, and a sister who lives in Tucson AZ, all from my biological mother, and I'm the only child of my biological father. I haven't been back to Sacramento since I was an infant, although I spent my first grade school year in Los Angeles living with my dad's sister. I did go back to LA to visit in my teenage years...
My parents (the military ones), long story short, also come from weird, broken families, and my mother is from Memphis. She was born in my grandparents' hometown of Walls, in Desoto County Mississippi. I spent my 8th grade year in Southaven/Memphis as my grandmother had a very bad heart attack, and my mother felt she needed to be there, so she took me and my brother with her and my dad stayed in VA...
I've never been that far south in the Sip to where your father is from; I haven't been south of Grenada. But I have been to Marion, which is essentially where your mother is from, and am very familiar with the neighboring county of Dillon...
I love Auburn! There is an unusual amount of pretty chicks there for a town that size, but I find that the black culture is no different there than here. And I know Ithaca like the back of my hand, there is even less of a black culture to speak of there, but its about the same here. Elmira/Ithaca/Binghamton, in terms of the people, are roughly the same, although Elmira is certainly the less educated of the three, and Ithaca is certainly the most eclectic and refined of the group. Notwithstanding the lack of blacks, Ithaca is an extremely fun town, and I've considered moving there, but the cost of living from just there to here is off the charts. I've worked with several people who live here and commute there, as well as vice-versa...[/quote]
With Auburn, it is similar, but I think the only slight difference is the history there in terms of Harriet Tubman, having the Booker T. Washington Community Center and Jerome Holland(in which the HS Football Stadium is named after). I guess on the flip side, you can say that Elmira views John W. Jones and Ernie Davis in a similar way.
Cost of living can jump in the Ithaca area, as while it is around the national average, it can vary by which part of the immediate area you are in. Like you mentioned, many people that work in Ithaca at the colleges come from surrounding counties or towns because of that. There's even special shuttles from public transportation companies in those counties to Cornell or Ithaca college too.
Walls makes sense given the Memphis Connection and some of my dad's family lived in other parts of the Delta like Money and Yazoo City. Marion is basically right next to Mullins and growing up, trips to South of the Border and Myrtle Beach were easy due to being so close.
@murksiderock and ckhthankgod: Have either of you read Isabelle Wilkerson's The Warmth of Other Suns: the Epic Story of America's Great Migration? It sounds like your families' histories fit right in with her narratives of the Great Migration, so it might give you a good perspective. It's a pretty long read, but a very good one.
@murksiderock and ckhthankgod: Have either of you read Isabelle Wilkerson's The Warmth of Other Suns: the Epic Story of America's Great Migration? It sounds like your families' histories fit right in with her narratives of the Great Migration, so it might give you a good perspective. It's a pretty long read, but a very good one.
I haven't read it, but she does reference Syracuse in the book from what I hear. She was interviewed on a local radio here about the book. here is the poscast: https://soundcloud.com/#inspirationf...-the-warmth-of
Also, seeing that you are from Jamestown, you probably know that Washington DC's first African-American(and first elected) mayor is Walter Washington. He was born in Dawson, GA, but grew up in Jamestown.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 06-17-2013 at 09:31 AM..
The recent posts may be more interesting than the original question, but to get back to it briefly: I did the reverse, moving from the South to upstate New York some 20 years go. My hunch is people find the communities aren't actually as cohesive as upstate. Most of the South's growth is in its bigger metro areas, and like suburbs everywhere, they can be unwelcoming if you don't already have entre or are really good at fitting in. I've found most truly small Southern towns more sad and forgotten than most in New York. Culturally, I've found racism is more overt in the South (I'm white), with people more prone to making racist jokes and complaining about "those people," whereas in the North, it's more a fringe, not-in-polite-company kind of thing. Schools still are more consistent in the North. There are some tremendous schools in well-off Southern suburbs, but there are some dreadful schools all over, especially in rural areas and inner cities, while at least here in New York, even the poorest rural districts are more points of pride for the community than in the South. Education is just more valued. Also, religion, particularly fundamentalist Protestantism, color things in the South. That, and more prosaic issues like the unending heat and humidity and bugs -- you can't do anything vigorous outside after an hour after dawn and before about 8 p.m. from late May or early June to early October without risking heat stroke -- probably drive people back north.
The recent posts may be more interesting than the original question, but to get back to it briefly: I did the reverse, moving from the South to upstate New York some 20 years go. My hunch is people find the communities aren't actually as cohesive as upstate. Most of the South's growth is in its bigger metro areas, and like suburbs everywhere, they can be unwelcoming if you don't already have entre or are really good at fitting in. I've found most truly small Southern towns more sad and forgotten than most in New York. Culturally, I've found racism is more overt in the South (I'm white), with people more prone to making racist jokes and complaining about "those people," whereas in the North, it's more a fringe, not-in-polite-company kind of thing. Schools still are more consistent in the North. There are some tremendous schools in well-off Southern suburbs, but there are some dreadful schools all over, especially in rural areas and inner cities, while at least here in New York, even the poorest rural districts are more points of pride for the community than in the South. Education is just more valued. Also, religion, particularly fundamentalist Protestantism, color things in the South. That, and more prosaic issues like the unending heat and humidity and bugs -- you can't do anything vigorous outside after an hour after dawn and before about 8 p.m. from late May or early June to early October without risking heat stroke -- probably drive people back north.
This may have explained the sense of community aspect better than I tried to do in terms of the schools and the aspect growth/migration plays in this.
If you don't mind me asking, where in the South did you move from?
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. But someone born and raised there having that opinion is more understandable than someone from Rome or Batavia or Fredonia or Buffalo having that opinion...
