Should NYS be split into two states? (New York, Buffalo: crime, college)
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That's what I've been told. When my friend first told me where his property was and said it was upstate, I looked at a map and laughed! I'm like "that's not upstate!" He told me that basically the consensus there is anything north of NYC is pretty much considered upstate.
He told me that basically the consensus there is anything north of NYC is pretty much considered upstate.
This is not a common view, but some in the more ghetto parts of NYC who has never left the city or had much contact with people outside of it may indeed think this way. Northern Westchester could in some sense be considered "upstate".
This is not a common view, but some in the more ghetto parts of NYC who has never left the city or had much contact with people outside of it may indeed think this way. Northern Westchester could in some sense be considered "upstate".
It's funny that you say that. Our New York friends that my wife and I met on our honeymoon that live in the NYC area (Rockland County just above Jersey) had the misconception that a lot of folks on the coasts have about Ohio, and that it is flyover country, and that we're a bunch of hicks. Not to mention they said we had a "country accent." Well, they came here in September of 2001 to visit and were shocked at how "civilized and built up" our region is. Well, duh! Yeah there are a lot of rural areas in Ohio, but we do rank 7th in population with over 11.5 million people, so we're not exactly podunkville either! The places in New York state I've been to aside from the city are more rural than anything around my neck of the woods. Beautiful country too, I might add. Can't wait to go back on Friday!
Sound like you have a problem with the concept because you are a "poor baby who is upset because so many New Yorkers don't buy into YOUR agenda of Left Wing Liberalism."
Like the song says "nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
There are pros and cons to splitting into two states. In a rational world, people would discuss the topic like adults and weigh both sides. Voters would examine facts instead of name-calling, stereotyping and demonizing those with a different opinion. I can remember a time when people actually did that.
By your thinking, maybe we should do away with the "state" concept all together. Just have one big Federal Government. That won't work because the United States is not one big homogeneous population. Which just happens to be the argument for a two-state New York. New York City does dominate the state's political system. There are many who believe that the needs of that mega-metropolis and its citizens are different than the needs of much of the rest of the state.
Voting trends would certainly bear that out, but New York is a diverse state in many regards besides political affiliation. You seem to like the current setup because it benefits your chosen political party. If NY did split, elections for the "upstate" version would not likely go your way. It is a valid opinion, and one you are entitled to. It does not necessarily make it "right" (or wrong) for the majority of affected people in either region.
I'm not sure where you are going with the "one person, one vote" concept. (Of course, that doesn't apply if, for example, your bootlegging daddy was friendly with the Chicago Mob and they were able to get numerous votes from dead people to throw an election and get you the presidency).
But of course we live in a REPUBLIC, not a democracy. It isn't supposed to be "majority rule." The good folks who wrote the Constitution realized a democracy is like two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Our elected representatives are supposed to watch out for those people (the one sheep) living in the hinterlands so the big city's voters (the two wolves) don't get everything.
Whether or not those elected representatives are doing their job and protecting that rural minority population is up for debate. On the flip side, there are plenty of people in New York City who would love to see NY split into two states. This is NOT a clear "right vs. left" question. People in both regions and both sides of the aisle are advocating a split.
There ARE advantages to BOTH up- and down-state residents in a split. There are also disadvantages. Reasonable people would welcome and honest discussion on these points. Unfortunately, too many people have become closed minded and prefer to shut down discussion by dismissing people as "babies," labeling the topic "bull crap" or turning the subject into a "right vs left" debate where one side MUST be unequivocally correct.
By that thinking 48% of the country is always correct, caring and intellegent, 48% is always wrong, cold hearted and stupid, and the remaining 4% are one or the other depending on how they voted in the last election. That's a pretty closed-minded world view. To paraphrase a statement you might have used... "you must get all your talking points from MSNBC."
If the blue vs red NYS county map was switched, I am sure you would be taking the exact opposite position on the topic. Yet all the facts would be the same. NY is a large diverse state and many feel their needs are not being addressed because NY City has different (not better, not worse) needs.
It is great the you have formed such a definitive opinion on the topic, despite the various different concepts which have been floated over the years. Personally, I prefer to keep an open mind and examine the strengths/weaknesses of each proposal. When there is one that actually has a snowball's chance in hell of becoming reality, then I will take the time to investigate the facts (not the MSNBC talking points) and make an informed decision.
I've already named the 800-lb gorilla in the room disadvantage: the loss of the massive revenue stream from downstate that's fueled by the banking, finance, and investment industries in NYC and that pays for most of the state budget, including state aid to Upstate localities.
Now, you name one concrete advantage to NYS residents there would result from the state splitting?
Sound like you have a problem with the concept because you are a "poor baby who is upset because so many New Yorkers don't buy into YOUR agenda of Left Wing Liberalism."
Like the song says "nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
There are pros and cons to splitting into two states. In a rational world, people would discuss the topic like adults and weigh both sides. Voters would examine facts instead of name-calling, stereotyping and demonizing those with a different opinion. I can remember a time when people actually did that.
By your thinking, maybe we should do away with the "state" concept all together. Just have one big Federal Government. That won't work because the United States is not one big homogeneous population. Which just happens to be the argument for a two-state New York. New York City does dominate the state's political system. There are many who believe that the needs of that mega-metropolis and its citizens are different than the needs of much of the rest of the state.
Voting trends would certainly bear that out, but New York is a diverse state in many regards besides political affiliation. You seem to like the current setup because it benefits your chosen political party. If NY did split, elections for the "upstate" version would not likely go your way. It is a valid opinion, and one you are entitled to. It does not necessarily make it "right" (or wrong) for the majority of affected people in either region.
I'm not sure where you are going with the "one person, one vote" concept. (Of course, that doesn't apply if, for example, your bootlegging daddy was friendly with the Chicago Mob and they were able to get numerous votes from dead people to throw an election and get you the presidency).
But of course we live in a REPUBLIC, not a democracy. It isn't supposed to be "majority rule." The good folks who wrote the Constitution realized a democracy is like two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Our elected representatives are supposed to watch out for those people (the one sheep) living in the hinterlands so the big city's voters (the two wolves) don't get everything.
Whether or not those elected representatives are doing their job and protecting that rural minority population is up for debate. On the flip side, there are plenty of people in New York City who would love to see NY split into two states. This is NOT a clear "right vs. left" question. People in both regions and both sides of the aisle are advocating a split.
There ARE advantages to BOTH up- and down-state residents in a split. There are also disadvantages. Reasonable people would welcome and honest discussion on these points. Unfortunately, too many people have become closed minded and prefer to shut down discussion by dismissing people as "babies," labeling the topic "bull crap" or turning the subject into a "right vs left" debate where one side MUST be unequivocally correct.
By that thinking 48% of the country is always correct, caring and intellegent, 48% is always wrong, cold hearted and stupid, and the remaining 4% are one or the other depending on how they voted in the last election. That's a pretty closed-minded world view. To paraphrase a statement you might have used... "you must get all your talking points from MSNBC."
If the blue vs red NYS county map was switched, I am sure you would be taking the exact opposite position on the topic. Yet all the facts would be the same. NY is a large diverse state and many feel their needs are not being addressed because NY City has different (not better, not worse) needs.
It is great the you have formed such a definitive opinion on the topic, despite the various different concepts which have been floated over the years. Personally, I prefer to keep an open mind and examine the strengths/weaknesses of each proposal. When there is one that actually has a snowball's chance in hell of becoming reality, then I will take the time to investigate the facts (not the MSNBC talking points) and make an informed decision.
Outstanding! Simply Outstanding! Hat's off to you sir.
Absolutely it should be split into two states. When one group forces its will on another that is called democracy which is slavery. There is plenty of land. If people in upstate want to be independent from the people down state they should be left alone to live freely.
Who said Upstaters want to be "independent"? Who does this group represent other than themselves? Last year there were some nutcases out in Colorado who decided that their counties should secede from Colorado and join Wyoming because they didn't like the fact that most of the political power in Colorado had shifted to Denver. They even got it on the ballot in one election cycle in which it was soundly defeated when it was actually voted on. Go find the story on the Colorado forum.
Eventually the rural vs. urban divide in this country will come to a shooting war similar to that little hullaballoo you may recall from the years 1861-1865.
As a certain political ideology - heavily influenced by very foreign, extremely un-American forebears - solidifies its reign over the sheeple of the cities, the nation as we know it is slowly rending itself as fat from the meat of a road-killed deer being harvested by a ravenous government doler.
With NYC squared in the middle of the "granny .gov is here to save you uneducated yokels" rage-a-thon, it is no wonder that red-blooded upstater Americans are frustrated to the point of severing all ties with their tight-jeans wearing, social justice infatuated, leftist-leaning southern neighbors.
Consider me an insurgent spy well-placed within the urban machinery. I'm just waiting for a yokel general to muster up the reserves...
Oh no, you're not still in New York? You've got to get out of that God awful state just like we did. There's nothing like the taste of freedom. Not having to be ruled over by all those dictatorial idiots and the sheep that keep them in power.
As an outsider (I'm from Ohio) who has been to a few different regions in your state in my lifetime, such as the Buffalo/Niagara Falls area, the Adirondacks when I was a kid(which I truly consider to be upstate), NYC area in 2001-2002, and most recently along the Southern Tier near the Finger Lakes region (going back this Friday BTW and don't consider it upstate), which is very rural, there is indeed a sentiment amongst those in that area that they wish that NYC and Long Island were a separate entity. Well... that's putting it nicely. One of the locals we talked to harped about the goofy gun laws that you folks have, because of the political influence from the city, and he said that many of the sheriffs in those rural counties refuse to enforce those laws. I tend to agree with those folks. Why should they be subjected to the whims of those in NYC? What works in NYC does not necessarily mean it will work in other areas. I had a great time when I was in the city, but given all of the silly nanny state laws that have been, and are being implemented, I really have no desire to go back.
Because it's NOT only people in NYC who want reasonable gun laws! There are lots of people in Upstate NY who don't want nutcases being able to easily get pistols. There are lots of people in Upstate who don't think that this state should become an armed war zone with people trotting around with various semi-automatic weaponry. If you can pass a federal background check, you don't have any problem buying sporting guns in NYS. Furthermore, NYC rules for owning hand guns and other weapons don't apply to Upstate since these are set at the city or county level. Getting a pistol permit anywhere in Upstate is a whole lot easier than in NYC, and it's even easier in most of the rural Upstate counties. You have to take a licensing course, pass a background check, and present references. Whoopty-doo.
Absolutely it should be split into two states. When one group forces its will on another that is called democracy which is slavery. There is plenty of land. If people in upstate want to be independent from the people down state they should be left alone to live freely.
Indeed it is! The only way to be free is to get out of there. Believe me you can have a much better quality of life living elsewhere. It's a great big country and there are many places to go that will suit your lifestyle and needs. At least in other states you do not need a permit from some bureaucrat to exercise a "Constitutional Right". Let those who've made New York such a miserable place to live wallow in their own misery. But the whole problem with the socialist welfare state is that as Margaret Thatcher said "They will eventually run out of other people's money".
It's funny that you say that. Our New York friends that my wife and I met on our honeymoon that live in the NYC area (Rockland County just above Jersey) had the misconception that a lot of folks on the coasts have about Ohio, and that it is flyover country, and that we're a bunch of hicks. Not to mention they said we had a "country accent." Well, they came here in September of 2001 to visit and were shocked at how "civilized and built up" our region is. Well, duh! Yeah there are a lot of rural areas in Ohio, but we do rank 7th in population with over 11.5 million people, so we're not exactly podunkville either! The places in New York state I've been to aside from the city are more rural than anything around my neck of the woods. Beautiful country too, I might add. Can't wait to go back on Friday!
That's not unusual. When I went to grad school in Nebraska years ago, most people I met thought that all of NYS was one giant city like NYC.
The fact is that most states are diverse unless they're so small that they can't be like Rhode Island or maybe Delaware. Memphis, TN and environs are very different from the eastern part of the state around Knoxville, not just in geography but in culture as well. Western Nebraska has much more in common with Wyoming than it does with the Omaha/Lincoln area. New Mexico is divided into the eastern part that's much like West Texas and the western part with is largely Hispanic and Indian. The flat lake plains area of northern Ohio with its old Rust Belt cities like Cleveland and Toledo isn't all that similar to the much hillier and more rural area of southern Ohio.
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Well, they came here in September of 2001 to visit and were shocked at how "civilized and built up" our region is. Well, duh! Yeah there are a lot of rural areas in Ohio, but we do rank 7th in population with over 11.5 million people, so we're not exactly podunkville either! The places in New York state I've been to aside from the city are more rural than anything around my neck of the woods. Beautiful country too, I might add. Can't wait to go back on Friday!
), which is very rural, there is indeed a sentiment amongst those in that area that they wish that NYC and Long Island were a separate entity. Well... that's putting it nicely. One of the locals we talked to harped about the goofy gun laws that you folks have, because of the political influence from the city, and he said that many of the sheriffs in those rural counties refuse to enforce those laws. I tend to agree with those folks. Why should they be subjected to the whims of those in NYC? What works in NYC does not necessarily mean it will work in other areas. I had a great time when I was in the city, but given all of the silly nanny state laws that have been, and are being implemented, I really have no desire to go back.
