Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The end result of both films you can thank studio meddling for. When Joke Whedon was hired, they tossed around all the safe rhetoric: "With Zack's blessing"; "Joss is only finishing it"; "the reshoots are based on Zack's notes" — ALL of that turned out to be studio-sanctioned goat pellets on a blackened biscuit. The two-film arc was compressed into one movie, and THEN it was retooled, and THEN they spent a bunch of money redoing VFX, partly due to all the new (and mostly unnecessary) footage JW shot. Even Steppenwolf was reduced to an echo of the menace he was intended to be. (Why do you think Joss famously liked a tweet that read Steppenwolf was the worst CBM villain ever? Because he was responsible.) Everybody who figures it only made the money it did "because of Joss" is wrong. The film is tonally uneven, savagely edited, and then were was the whole moustachegate biz with Cavill. It was an event film for all the wrong reasons.
That all may be true. I suspect it is. But the end result: It was a bad movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
As for "since the MCU was formed," there's no reason to discount The Dark Knight Rises, Man of Steel and especially Wonder Woman in such a grave manner: All are easily better films than the pre-Avengers solo films and Iron Man 3, and still better than the disappointing Age of Ultron, the mess that The Dark World turned into, and the revered Ant-Man, which is just a "fun" watch at best, since it's all bread and one sliver of processed meat (nice VFX, but that's it). I go see all these films, but when people start talking up the MCU like it's a flawless engine, it's time to don my flood boots.
Man of Steel better than Iron Man and the first two Captain America films? Put down the crack pipe, sir.
The Dark Knight Rises was an incoherent joyless mess. I'd rather re-watch some of the Schumacher movies. At least they had the grace to giggle at their own badness.
Man of Steel better than Iron Man and the first two Captain America films? Put down the crack pipe, sir.
YOU put it down. The Winter Soldier is not one of the pre-Avengers (2012) solos, dude.
In fact, The Winter Soldier is arguably still the best MCU film. But I'm sure everyone here who loves Black Panther and Infinity War will be quick to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S.
The Dark Knight Rises was an incoherent joyless mess. I'd rather re-watch some of the Schumacher movies. At least they had the grace to giggle at their own badness.
Here we go again. Whenever "joyless" comes up, it's joined by "Marvel movies are FUN! Which is why they're better!" and other vapor trails.
In fact, The Winter Soldier is arguably still the best MCU film.
I agree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
But I'm sure everyone here who loves Black Panther and Infinity War will be quick to disagree.
I liked BLACK PANTHER, but I thought a lot of vital points (like the villain) settled for being adequate when they had an opportunity to be great. The movie actually asked some profound questions. Unfortunately, it settled for cartoon-level answers
INFINITY WAR was a fun spectacle, but nothing I’ll ever want to watch again and again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
Here we go again. Whenever "joyless" comes up, it's joined by "Marvel movies are FUN! Which is why they're better!" and other vapor trails.
It isn’t THE reason they are better, but it is definitely on the list. But I don’t think it’s even very high on the list.
DC and Marvel heroes have always had some fundamental differences. DC should embrace that rather than trying to be more like Marvel.
DC heroes were always more archetypical than real-world heroes. DC was Greek Mythology while Marvel was more Shakespeare. DC was great Classical music while Marvel was rock n’ roll. The DC movie-verse needs to embrace that rather than seeming embarrassed by ti.
Take Superman for example. Superman was created by a couple of Jewish kids, the sons of immigrants. He was part Messiah and part idealized American immigrant. That is the heart of Superman. He isn’t just a super hero. He is supposed to be The Super Hero. But Snyder (and other before him, I’ll grant you) seem rather embarrassed by that and keep trying to turn him into some Ayn Randian Objectivist a-hole filled with angst and self-doubt. Even Tarantino had a better handle on what makes Superman than anything that has come out of the DC movie-verse.
This is largely why Wonder Woman succeeded so brilliantly. Patty Jenkins was not embarrassed or scandalized by the idealized archetypical Wonder Woman. No. She embraced it and ran with it. And she did it with a lot of grace and subtlety. Wonder Woman has always been a feminist icon, but unlike the old TV show, Diana didn’t spend half of every scene talking about how a woman can do anything a man can do it. She just did it. Show. Don’t tell.
DC heroes were always more archetypical than real-world heroes. DC was Greek Mythology while Marvel was more Shakespeare. DC was great Classical music while Marvel was rock n’ roll. The DC movie-verse needs to embrace that rather than seeming embarrassed by ti.
Take Superman for example. Superman was created by a couple of Jewish kids, the sons of immigrants. He was part Messiah and part idealized American immigrant. That is the heart of Superman. He isn’t just a super hero. He is supposed to be The Super Hero. But Snyder (and other before him, I’ll grant you) seem rather embarrassed by that and keep trying to turn him into some Ayn Randian Objectivist a-hole filled with angst and self-doubt. Even Tarantino had a better handle on what makes Superman than anything that has come out of the DC movie-verse.
This is largely why Wonder Woman succeeded so brilliantly. Patty Jenkins was not embarrassed or scandalized by the idealized archetypical Wonder Woman. No. She embraced it and ran with it. And she did it with a lot of grace and subtlety. Wonder Woman has always been a feminist icon, but unlike the old TV show, Diana didn’t spend half of every scene talking about how a woman can do anything a man can do it. She just did it. Show. Don’t tell.
You're addressing quantity. The WB suits said, "Marvel films are making more money than ours. Copy what they're doing." Results were disastrous.
I'm talking about quality. There has been a healthy competition between Marvel and DC comics for decades, and it has made both stronger publishers. Joe Quesada admitted as much, when he talked about how much he loved many of DC's books at the time and so was inspired to try to do better.
Gotcha. I see your point. I agree with that. The main issue I had was how they handled Justice League, and in my mind, on the surface it kind of seemed like "competition" in the sense that they were trying to match exactly what Marvel had created, when they could have been focusing on 2 great characters that they could build on (SM and WW).
That's what I was meaning in terms of competition (not feeling like they need to match Marvel tit-for-tat). I definitely agree that having a healthy competition to ensure that each is at the top of their game in terms of quality is important.
DC and Marvel heroes have always had some fundamental differences. DC should embrace that rather than trying to be more like Marvel.
DC heroes were always more archetypical than real-world heroes. DC was Greek Mythology while Marvel was more Shakespeare. DC was great Classical music while Marvel was rock n’ roll. The DC movie-verse needs to embrace that rather than seeming embarrassed by ti.
Take Superman for example. Superman was created by a couple of Jewish kids, the sons of immigrants. He was part Messiah and part idealized American immigrant. That is the heart of Superman. He isn’t just a super hero. He is supposed to be The Super Hero. But Snyder (and other before him, I’ll grant you) seem rather embarrassed by that and keep trying to turn him into some Ayn Randian Objectivist a-hole filled with angst and self-doubt. Even Tarantino had a better handle on what makes Superman than anything that has come out of the DC movie-verse.
Never has it been written that a character must adhere wholesale to his or her original incarnation, never to deviate, never to evolve. If that were the case, the successful Craig-Bond movies never would have happened. Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns never would have happened. Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright never would have happened. Tony Stark never would have started slinging quips just like the actor who plays him. Right now, we're seeing what happens when creative forces try to rein things back to their origin point with the new Stars Wars films: they're continually criticized for focusing too much on the Skywalker bloodline and tropes already mined in the OT.
The take on Superman being an extraterrestrial who realizes he's different and has always been bothered by that, with the fact that he grows up in an insular farming community not helping things much, and assumes a nomadic path for a time (before figuring out he can actually fly, like a jet plane) is a more viable treatment for the modern age than a guy who grows up, realizes he's meant to Save The World Over & Over, and pulls up his red trunks and gets to it. That's the antiquated Golden Age Superman. That's what Superman Returns attempted to bring back, with less than desirable results. The whole arc of Man of Steel is that the extraterrestrial realizes he IS "one of us." We're on that journey with him. It's also reflected in the line "Krypton had its chance."
See if you can sit through Superman Returns and tell me what you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S.
This is largely why Wonder Woman succeeded so brilliantly. Patty Jenkins was not embarrassed or scandalized by the idealized archetypical Wonder Woman. No. She embraced it and ran with it. And she did it with a lot of grace and subtlety. Wonder Woman has always been a feminist icon, but unlike the old TV show, Diana didn’t spend half of every scene talking about how a woman can do anything a man can do it. She just did it. Show. Don’t tell.
Snyder being "embarrassed" by Superman the character is a myth. The archetypical Wonder Woman was made even more archetypical in the mid-'80s by George Pérez and that's his version you see on the screen. It's the night to Lynda Carter Wonder Woman's day, the same way Nolan's Batman trilogy was to Adam West's. (All the Burton and Schumacher movies did was try to blend campy Batman and serious Batman, and that hasn't aged well.)
Never has it been written that a character must adhere wholesale to his or her original incarnation, never to deviate, never to evolve.
Evolving is perfectly fine. But as with any time of storytelling, the first question the writer must ask is: What defines this character? What defines Batman as Batman? Superman as Superman? Captain America as Captain America?
The character can and certainly should grow. But if you deviate completely from that core definition, then the character is no longer the character.
A writer certainly could turn Batman into a happy-go-lucky guy with a devoted wife and three adorable kids. He fights crime because gosh darn it that’s what good dads do. In the hands of a talented writer, that might even be a great story (like THE INCREDIBLES). But it would no longer be Batman.
This is where Snyder and the movies have gotten Superman so wrong. They have tried to turn THE Iconic Super Hero into an angsty Objectivist hero who can only be the hero he’s meant to be by finally embracing his own self-actualization. Blech. Ayn Rand may be smiling in her grave, but Siegel and Schuster are rolling over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
If that were the case, the successful Craig-Bond movies never would have happened.
Bad example to your point, because what CASINO ROYALE did so well was return Bond to the tougher Bond from the original Fleming novels that the movies had drifted away from for decades. It was a Back to Basics approach, not a reinvention --- a lot like Denny O’Neil did with Batman in the late sixties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns never would have happened.
TDKR isn’t really reinventing Batman so much as an “alternate future” take on the character. It was more of a WHAT IF? story. It was hugely influential because it did for Batman what Miller had already done for Daredevil: Show that comics can be for grown-ups too. But did it redefine the character? No. In fact, large parts of that story were pretty goofy and unBatmannish. Batman riding horses and shooting machine guns? Fighting Road Warrioresque mutants? Superman a fascist? No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
The take on Superman being an extraterrestrial who realizes he's different and has always been bothered by that, with the fact that he grows up in an insular farming community not helping things much, and assumes a nomadic path for a time (before figuring out he can actually fly, like a jet plane) is a more viable treatment for the modern age than a guy who grows up, realizes he's meant to Save The World Over & Over, and pulls up his red trunks and gets to it. That's the antiquated Golden Age Superman.
You’re both over-thinking and over-simplifying who Superman is --- which, I think, is what a lot of comic books writers and Snyder have done over the years, because they see Superman as the flawless “golden boy,” and a flawless golden boys are boring, so they try to make him all angsty and broody and imperfect. But they are preceding from a flawed premise.
Superman is the Ideal. He came from a far more advanced (though flawed) civilization. He is stronger than us. He is almost invulnerable so he can protect those who cannot protect themselves. But besides being our protector, he is supposed to show us the way to better ourselves. It’s no mistake that a couple of Jewish kids invented a Messiah figure.
But Superman’s primary weakness is not kryptonite. He is alone. Yeah, he’s better than us, but he has to figure out all this by himself. And for the things that REALLY matter, he is just as powerless as we are. There’s that great line from the original movie: “With all my powers, all those things I can do … I still couldn’t save him.” For all the things he can do, Superman can’t always save those he loves. That is his weakness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
The whole arc of Man of Steel is that the extraterrestrial realizes he IS "one of us."
Which is wrong. He is not one of us. He was sent to show us the way to be better. Even KILL BILL got this right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
See if you can sit through Superman Returns and tell me what you think.
I watched ten minutes of it, and I think you’re trying to torture me. Life is too short to sit through that entire movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
Snyder being "embarrassed" by Superman the character is a myth.
All evidence shows the Snyder does not like the idea of Superman being a real selfless Hero. He’s channeling Ayn Rand more than Siegel and Shuster.
If you want to keep this up, might I suggest we switch over to the MAN OF STEEL thread? I suspect some folks are going to get annoyed at the nerds obsessing over Superman in the INFINITY WAR thread.
YOU put it down. The Winter Soldier is not one of the pre-Avengers (2012) solos, dude.
In fact, The Winter Soldier is arguably still the best MCU film. But I'm sure everyone here who loves Black Panther and Infinity War will be quick to disagree.
Here we go again. Whenever "joyless" comes up, it's joined by "Marvel movies are FUN! Which is why they're better!" and other vapor trails.
Hmmmm, Black Panther was OK, but I loved Infinity Wars, and I think The Winter Soldier is the best MCU movie so far.
I saw the movie last week. At the end everyone in the theater just sat there looking around like what just happened.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Groot's last line in Infinity War
