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Well, I feel less strongly about the mandates than I do about the basic science that they are safe and effective. For my part though, I am not *against* the mandates, so, guilty as charged I guess. As mentioned, we've long had them - and did they (on balance) hurt of help? I think they've helped far more than they have hurt. I do agree that persuasion is better than coercion, but when you've got over 100 million American who've dug their heels in and stopped listening long ago, I think persuasion is having little effect at this point. And with over 640,000 dead Americans and counting, I still think we need to do better against this virus.
Well I appreciate you being honest and explaining your position.
Not sure where you got that. Not agreeing with employer-mandated Covid vaccinations doesn't mean I don't think companies should have policies.
I understand some jobs require employees to have certain medical procedures but typically this is disclosed up front, and employees consent to this before accepting the position. At the same time, forgive me for not being convinced of its ethical soundness because the US Military have forcibly required vaccines.
The fact that this timeline was widely considered an impossibility by experts and the public is fueling much of the speculation about this current vaccine. Before 18 months have passed, we are debating the ethics of mandates. Obviously I trust it enough to take it, but I'm not going to ignore why so many are skeptical.
So you see no ethical scenario besides an unwilling person having a needle inserted into their arm to receive a vaccine/boosters they are skeptical about every 5-6 months? There are no possible accomodations which could also further safety?
I don’t know how many ways you can make it seem like the vaccine is more dangerous than it actually is, or what language you can use to make a shot seem like dangerous and unnecessary surgery, but the fact remains that none of your flowery language changes my opinion that it I think it is perfectly legitimate for employers to require an FDA approved vaccination during a global pandemic.
That you are presenting evidence that the vaccine should be dangerous rather than any evidence that the vaccine is dangerous says a lot. The entire anti-vaccination argument is based on the idea that certain parts of the government can’t be trusted. Is there any evidence that the vaccine is unusually dangerous? Any evidence that the safety procedures were violated? I suspect that no amount of research and study will be enough to convince some people. I don’t think substantive decisions should be made based on the need to convince absolutely everyone.
No one is being forced to be vaccinated. They are being given a choice between getting vaccinated and losing their job. Of course a company can forego or weaken their vaccination policy to help those who have convinced themselves the vaccine is dangerous. We don’t need to argue about cases where people generally agree with each other. That isn’t the test case for rights. We are arguing about which ‘right’ takes precedence. I think it’s particularly disingenuous to call allowing a company to make its own employment decisions ‘authoritarian’ while forcing companies to employ people that have a problem with specific company policies is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayei
Also, if someone receives a vaccine because their employer required them to and they experience an adverse reaction (which happens), is the employer liable?
Perhaps if the individual is willing to work for free forever in the *far more likely* event that they are exposed to COVID and the vaccine prevents sever complications or even death. That’s not the way any of this works, though. The vaccine already has liability mechanisms established.
If you genuinely feel that ‘vaccination status’ should be a protected class, you can work with your federal representatives to make it one. It is not. I am glad it is not. If you do work to make it a protected class, I’m sure I will be against your efforts. Until the unvaccinated are legally protected, employers have broad rights to ensure their employees are vaccinated. People have no obligation to work for those companies and are under no requirement to become vaccinated. No one is being forced to do something they don’t want.
Religious objection can be theistic or ethical/moral. If someone does not consent to taking the Covid vaccine, they theoretically could have an ethical objection to being forced to take it.
This is nonsense. It’s your civic duty to get vaccinated. For example, the vaccination rate is low in New Bedford and Fall River. With Delta, the SouthCoast Hospital group that owns the two big hospitals in New Bedford and Fall River is down to 4 ICU beds. The problem is caused by selfish people who won’t get vaccinated. The CDC reports that you’re 29x more likely to land in the hospital if you’re not vaccinated. Hiding behind some faux religious excuse is causing a public health crisis. People who need those hospital beds are at risk of being turned away. We live in a cooperative society. Everyone needs to do their part.
The New York Times reports that most health insurers are no longer waiving deductibles and co-pays for COVID-19 hospitalization. The NY Times says 72% of large health plans. This includes Florida Blue Cross in the State of Death. An awful lot of people with cruddy health insurance who aren’t vaccinated are going to end up with huge bills. The average hospital cost is $40k to $50k depending on which source you use. With the usual 80/20 coverage, people will have $10k+ hospital bills piled on top of their stupidity. Particularly if you land in an out of network hospital because yours is full. The unvaccinated aren’t the high earners in blue chip suburbs who can afford to eat a big hospital bill. They’re largely people where that kind of unexpected bill is a catastrophe.
I don’t know how many ways you can make it seem like the vaccine is more dangerous than it actually is, or what language you can use to make a shot seem like dangerous and unnecessary surgery, but the fact remains that none of your flowery language changes my opinion that it I think it is perfectly legitimate for employers to require an FDA approved vaccination during a global pandemic.
That you are presenting evidence that the vaccine should be dangerous rather than any evidence that the vaccine is dangerous says a lot. The entire anti-vaccination argument is based on the idea that certain parts of the government can’t be trusted. Is there any evidence that the vaccine is unusually dangerous? Any evidence that the safety procedures were violated? I suspect that no amount of research and study will be enough to convince some people. I don’t think substantive decisions should be made based on the need to convince absolutely everyone.
No one is being forced to be vaccinated. They are being given a choice between getting vaccinated and losing their job. Of course a company can forego or weaken their vaccination policy to help those who have convinced themselves the vaccine is dangerous. We don’t need to argue about cases where people generally agree with each other. That isn’t the test case for rights. We are arguing about which ‘right’ takes precedence. I think it’s particularly disingenuous to call allowing a company to make its own employment decisions ‘authoritarian’ while forcing companies to employ people that have a problem with specific company policies is not.
Perhaps if the individual is willing to work for free forever in the *far more likely* event that they are exposed to COVID and the vaccine prevents sever complications or even death. That’s not the way any of this works, though. The vaccine already has liability mechanisms established.
If you genuinely feel that ‘vaccination status’ should be a protected class, you can work with your federal representatives to make it one. It is not. I am glad it is not. If you do work to make it a protected class, I’m sure I will be against your efforts. Until the unvaccinated are legally protected, employers have broad rights to ensure their employees are vaccinated. People have no obligation to work for those companies and are under no requirement to become vaccinated. No one is being forced to do something they don’t want.
Let's say hypothetically the vaccines are as safe as broccoli it's wrong to coerce a medical decision. In a free society the 51 percent do not decide what the 49 will do. That is a full democracy which we are not we are a Democratic republic. Individual rights are more important than group rights. Why? That way everyone is protected. A employer can make any policy they want but can not coerce a medical procedure. In a free society every medical procedure is up to the Individual. In some ways the free market is working in Chicago they have a shortage of bus drivers for schools be cause when the mandate happened so many quit. Good now some kids can't go to school. Vaccine passports ruin businesses also. This is In Canada but the same ethics apply......... https://youtu.be/a3LGOAFGX9g.
Last edited by justyouraveragetenant; 09-06-2021 at 04:17 PM..
Let's say hypothetically the vaccines are as safe as broccoli it's wrong to coerce a medical decision. In a free society the 51 percent do not decide what the 49 will do. That is a full democracy which we are not we are a Democratic republic. Individual rights are more important than group rights. Why? That way everyone is protected. A employer can make any policy they want but can not coerce a medical procedure. In a free society every medical procedure is up to the Individual. In some ways the free market is working in Chicago they have a shortage of bus drivers for schools be cause when the mandate happened so many quit. Good now some kids can't go to school. Vaccine passports ruin businesses also. This is In Canada but the same ethics apply......... https://youtu.be/a3LGOAFGX9g.
huh? how is non being vaccinated saying that you are protecting people?
Equal opportunities don't mean equal outcomes. Look it is not a protected class as we know diseases and forms of PPE's exist. This is simply an extention.
What are you more likely to die of? The virus or the vaccine?
GeoffD touches on this issue but here's the real truth. As hospitals are filled with unvaccinated people it displaces those that are that have conditions. Then there's those that never tested and died and then we test the body. So how many extra deaths are there? Millions. Try 15-18 million as a total death count. https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...aths-estimates
If this continues to happen and we've talked about this before they'll just deny the benefits. No medicare, no medicade, no health insurance, no life insurance, no car insurance, no house insurance, no dental insurance non nada or at least in person. https://www.yahoo.com/news/florida-d...140140760.html
If you don't have faith in science why should anyone have faith in you? If you reject masks, getting tested and vaccines what are we supposed to think?
We talk about different demographics of those that are more likely to get it and those that don't but there ae a few that are far less likely to. But this gets interesting. Amish and Native Americans
You figure if there would be a group highly skeptical of the vaccinate it would be native americans but infact the opposite is true. They aren't as focused on tourism but survival. The got the word out and it worked.
If we make the argument about "individual rights" can we smoke and drink in a building or not? It's not a protected class and you can't make the argument is because a protected class is on time of birth that you cannot change. Read the works of Rousseau. What you are arguing for is the state of nature. But the reality is we live in the social contract. You can't have it both ways.
On a more employment basis here I have a few comments.
1) Is anyone working in a situation with people working remotely from other parts of the country if not the world? If so are there are are there not plans to have them come back? I'm starting to see this debated about people hired remotely in the past 18 months. The arguments I'm hearing is that it is impractical to expect people to move given how expensive housing is. But at the same point how can we tell people to go back to the office if it only means some of those.
2) Has anyone seen the rates of commercial rent increases? A place where I was in the past ended up with a few quotes. Two of which were much higher. To just stay in the commercial building they have now is a 46% increase. The costs of moving by itself can be a factor but the other places highlighted amenities that were high end that probably had no post covid justification. I've personally dealt with increases on my own rent but nowhere near 46%. This isn't a major city either. I think we might see places that take advantage of those. We saw immediately what the increase in residential housing and rents shift during covid but I think "back to the office" is going to lead to significant commercial rent increases that might lead to some thinking twice. Commercial rents are longer term leases and usually have less controls. You figure a commercial lease is maybe 3-5 years. We'll it's been 18 months.
I'm just talking about offices, I'm not even getting into bars and restaurants which are complicated as hell between the extended UI, PPP loans, PPE's etc. I know of a really good restaurant in downtown Springfield that openly said if they didn't own their space they would have been gone ten years ago due to the rents in the area.
Let's say hypothetically the vaccines are as safe as broccoli it's wrong to coerce a medical decision. In a free society the 51 percent do not decide what the 49 will do. That is a full democracy which we are not we are a Democratic republic. Individual rights are more important than group rights. Why? That way everyone is protected. A employer can make any policy they want but can not coerce a medical procedure. In a free society every medical procedure is up to the Individual. In some ways the free market is working in Chicago they have a shortage of bus drivers for schools be cause when the mandate happened so many quit. Good now some kids can't go to school. Vaccine passports ruin businesses also. This is In Canada but the same ethics apply......... https://youtu.be/a3LGOAFGX9g.
Exposing yourself to unvaccinated people during a pandemic is also a 'medical decision'. I think we have differing views of what constitutes freedom. If you want to do something your employer does not want you to do, you think that a free society should use the force of arms to compel your employer to allow you. I think that employers should have broader control over who they hire and continue to employ.
How do you feel about employer drug tests? That is a 'medical procedure' at least as invasive as a COVID vaccination. Should those be made universally illegal, as well?
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