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Chicago is broke buddy. Has been for a while. I hope to God Houston does not become Chicago, from a government perspective. I'll move if it does.[/QUOTE Support your come back with facts that show us the thriving downtown Houston. Tons of cities have improved their downtown core since the 1970's (Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Pittsburg, Minneapolis, San Antonio, Austin, Fort Worth). Houston is treading water. Rather than being so DEFENSIVE look at this topic as what it is a Urban Planning issue. What works and what doesn't work in downtown Houston.
P.S. Your antidotical points are short sighted. If I were to view Houston from shorted sightedness of its last few recessions.....then I would have looked silly wouldn't I?
Please feel free to review all the new buildings going up in and around downtown Chicago too.
If you want to talk about city management.....the economy...start a new topic.
OK fine. What do those cities have that Houston does not? I'll tell you. A cheap way for the family to get downtown without a car. I'm in the Woodlands. You could put 1000 drop dead naked super models in main st square and I'm not driving through the traffic for 45 minutes on 45 to see them. I'm just not going to. I don't care what you build down there. That is what YOU are not getting. Houston is a car city. I wish it wasn't, but it is. I actually prefer the mass transit options of NY and Chicago. Hell even St. Louis has a the metro link that runs from Lambert Airport and stops at every major entertainment venue all the way to the east side casinos. You know damn well I've been a big proponent on these boards of mass transit and would pay higher taxes to support it. However, we DON'T have that. Maybe one day we will and I hope to God we do. But you can't spend billions building up downtown without a mass transit system to get people there. That's what you guys don't get. Yes Chicago has built up the city because all the families from the burbs hop on the metro and take their kids into the city on the weekend to see a Cubs game or go to a show or just have dinner. Same with NY. Stand in Grand Central at noon on a saturday and you'll see all the families getting off the metro north from Westchester to go see a Broadway Play and then dinner. Even in St. Louis, on game day the metro link is packed as families park at the North Hanley parking lot and take the train all the way to Bush stadium.
So until you address how you are going to get people downtown, no one is going to spend billions of dollars building things. Seriously, do any of you guys honestly think that just having 5k or 10k people living there is enough to actually support all these things you people are begging for? I mean we would need to get probably north of 100k to 150k people actually living in Downtown to justify just a few of these things. But the real payoff for the city and the businesses is not from the few people who live downtown eating out and buying stuff, but it's the outsiders. Someone from Kingwood and Katy and Clear Lake who can hop on a train and go into the city and buy stuff and do things. Or the tourist or business traveler who flys into Houston for a day. How the hell does he even get downtown? He sure to God is not renting a car for a day to fight traffic to come into the city and see what? What? The Aquarium? Come on people.
So you might as well change the topic of this thread to mass transit because that is the real problem here. And btw, I like to drive. When I grew up in St. Louis I drove everywhere. Hell I drove 40 miles to go downtown to a baseball game. But you know what the difference was? There was NO traffic there. So even if you could guarantee me a 45 mile drive with zero traffic, I still don't think it's worth it for me to go downtown. Now add in the possibility that one of you decides to get into an accident and 45 and turn it into a parking lot and making me drive an hour and half, quite frankly going into the city losses all it's appeal.
So here we are back to square one. A bunch of people on a message board begging for someone to risk their money to build something that nobody in this city has the ability or the patience to get to. You fix the mass transit problem and you fix the downtown revitalization problem. The two go hand in hand. But complaining about Macy's leaving is not going to do anything.
I think the problem with downtown Houston can be at least partially attributable to the mentality of Houstonites - they seem to drive to downtown to work, park in their building (or on a surface lot across the street), go up to their offices and return directly to their cars at the end of the day and head home. On the street, it feels like a ghost town most of the time.
I recently moved here from NYC and was amazed that you don't really see many business folks walking around on the streets of downtown Houston, even on an average workday. Honestly, I work a few blocks from that Macy's and I considered walking over there after work a few times but decided against it because I don't feel safe walking around downtown, especially after dark. Whereas, when I was in NYC, I regularly would stop at Bloomingdale's/Saks/ etc. on the way home or during lunch when I needed to pick up a gift or something.
There is no hustle and bustle to the streets and downtown seems dark and quiet regardless of the time or day. I went to the CVS on Main St a few weeks back for a box of tissues during lunch and felt like I was in a really bad part of town - whereas, in NYC, you have at the very least, a mix of lower and middle class folks and there's always lots of people around.
I think the problem with downtown Houston can be at least partially attributable to the mentality of Houstonites - they seem to drive to downtown to work, park in their building (or on a surface lot across the street), go up to their offices and return directly to their cars at the end of the day and head home. On the street, it feels like a ghost town most of the time.
I recently moved here from NYC and was amazed that you don't really see many business folks walking around on the streets of downtown Houston, even on an average workday. Honestly, I work a few blocks from that Macy's and I considered walking over there after work a few times but decided against it because I don't feel safe walking around downtown, especially after dark. Whereas, when I was in NYC, I regularly would stop at Bloomingdale's/Saks/ etc. on the way home or during lunch when I needed to pick up a gift or something.
There is no hustle and bustle to the streets and downtown seems dark and quiet regardless of the time or day. I went to the CVS on Main St a few weeks back for a box of tissues during lunch and felt like I was in a really bad part of town - whereas, in NYC, you have at the very least, a mix of lower and middle class folks and there's always lots of people around.
The reason for this is the Houston underground tunnel system.
It's absolutely packed during the week especially during lunch and even right after work. They built this thing because of the extreme heat we get 4 months out of the year and the heavy rains. It connects all the buildings downtown so you never have to go outside. Quite frankly if I worked there, I would NEVER venture outside if I could just go down here. They have 100's of restaurants, bars, stores, you name it. The downside to this is it removes all the foot traffic from the streets. But seriously, this is very needed for Houston. Chicago has a smaller version of this for the harsh winters they get.
Honestly I love to go outside when it's nice and surely would enjoy for a few months being able to walk places but again, we come back this same argument. No one on this board is going to underwrite the risk right? Would you spend your money building something that you know people would not go to because it already exists in the tunnel system? I mean guys this is all about economics.
Keep thinking Houston is Lufkin and I get your point. But those of us from larger cities know it can have both a strong core and an auto loving people. Those of us who aren't from here.....we see Houston's potential and it is just bursting to happen. We see it in upper kirby and other denser developements in the loop. Its coming. Macy's is a let down. And is not the right direction to go.
So here's an idea. Build a train system that connects into the tunnel system and open the tunnel system on the weekends. The problem is the tunnels are not public areas, they are privately owned by the buildings above them. So the city would have to work out some kind of deal to allow them to manage weekend or evening traffic. This would at least bring people in and all the shops and stuff are already there. Then you get some of that foot traffic to spill over to the streets in the evening and weekends. Again, this is a conversation about mass transit.
I think the problem with downtown Houston can be at least partially attributable to the mentality of Houstonites - they seem to drive to downtown to work, park in their building (or on a surface lot across the street), go up to their offices and return directly to their cars at the end of the day and head home. On the street, it feels like a ghost town most of the time.
I recently moved here from NYC and was amazed that you don't really see many business folks walking around on the streets of downtown Houston, even on an average workday. Honestly, I work a few blocks from that Macy's and I considered walking over there after work a few times but decided against it because I don't feel safe walking around downtown, especially after dark. Whereas, when I was in NYC, I regularly would stop at Bloomingdale's/Saks/ etc. on the way home or during lunch when I needed to pick up a gift or something.
There is no hustle and bustle to the streets and downtown seems dark and quiet regardless of the time or day. I went to the CVS on Main St a few weeks back for a box of tissues during lunch and felt like I was in a really bad part of town - whereas, in NYC, you have at the very least, a mix of lower and middle class folks and there's always lots of people around.
First of all that's a lie. When the weather is nice there are tons of people on the streets. Second of all when the weather is cold or raining or super hot the smart people take the tunnels during lunch time. Main and Mckinney where the CVS is the "bad part" of town? Now I know you're just trolling. LOL, at all these tough people from New York scared of a few bums on the streets.
First of all that's a lie. When the weather is nice there are tons of people on the streets. Second of all when the weather is cold or raining or super hot the smart people take the tunnels during lunch time. Main and Mckinney where the CVS is the "bad part" of town? Now I know you're just trolling. LOL, at all these tough people from New York scared of a few bums on the streets.
This creates a huge problem I think they are going to have a hard time sale that buliding its old and regarded by many as one of the ugliest in Downtown..
Dont expect it to be torn down ither this is Houston buliding sit for decades
I think the problem with downtown Houston can be at least partially attributable to the mentality of Houstonites - they seem to drive to downtown to work, park in their building (or on a surface lot across the street), go up to their offices and return directly to their cars at the end of the day and head home. On the street, it feels like a ghost town most of the time.
I recently moved here from NYC and was amazed that you don't really see many business folks walking around on the streets of downtown Houston, even on an average workday. Honestly, I work a few blocks from that Macy's and I considered walking over there after work a few times but decided against it because I don't feel safe walking around downtown, especially after dark. Whereas, when I was in NYC, I regularly would stop at Bloomingdale's/Saks/ etc. on the way home or during lunch when I needed to pick up a gift or something.
There is no hustle and bustle to the streets and downtown seems dark and quiet regardless of the time or day. I went to the CVS on Main St a few weeks back for a box of tissues during lunch and felt like I was in a really bad part of town - whereas, in NYC, you have at the very least, a mix of lower and middle class folks and there's always lots of people around.
They are all down in the downtown tunnels that's why.
All those people flying in to shop in the touristy Michigan Avenue....all that outside sales tax revenue and all that hotel and restaurant tax the city of Chicago is pumping out of those tourist paying 30% more. Some of us think a shopping mecca (clean) bringing outside tax revenue would be healthy for downtown Houston. WE see see what the Houston model is doing to downtown Houston. Gutting it.
I agree with you, except I think gutting Macy's was a good idea if they replace it with some more retail/entertainment/residential options. If it's just another office building then BOOO!! It's time Houston boost some tourist dollars into the cities core which is downtown.
Galleria/Uptown is moving in the right direction. Rice Village/Rice area is moving in the right direction. Midtown is moving in the right direction. Downtown will be downtown. And with all eyes being on Houston nationally for population growth it's time this city start emphasizing more on innovative ideas that scream urban ingenuity.
I hate to say it but even Dallas is making some progressive strides to add some entertainment, accommodation to their downtown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le_Porcupine
I think the problem with downtown Houston can be at least partially attributable to the mentality of Houstonites - they seem to drive to downtown to work, park in their building (or on a surface lot across the street), go up to their offices and return directly to their cars at the end of the day and head home. On the street, it feels like a ghost town most of the time.
I recently moved here from NYC and was amazed that you don't really see many business folks walking around on the streets of downtown Houston, even on an average workday. Honestly, I work a few blocks from that Macy's and I considered walking over there after work a few times but decided against it because I don't feel safe walking around downtown, especially after dark. Whereas, when I was in NYC, I regularly would stop at Bloomingdale's/Saks/ etc. on the way home or during lunch when I needed to pick up a gift or something.
There is no hustle and bustle to the streets and downtown seems dark and quiet regardless of the time or day. I went to the CVS on Main St a few weeks back for a box of tissues during lunch and felt like I was in a really bad part of town - whereas, in NYC, you have at the very least, a mix of lower and middle class folks and there's always lots of people around.
I actually feel that way in certain areas of downtown on the weekends or at night time. Some areas are completely empty and come off uninviting and then some areas scream people. But it's not a continuous flow of people from block to block.
Partially to blame for that is the tunnel system but apart of the reason for the tunnel system was to accommodate the workers in particular companies in downtown. Which goes to show a little bit of that Houston mentality that people label the city with "All work no play." Foot traffic surrounded by skyscrapers does an effect to the city that can't be beat. Downtown has the most potential when it comes to walking from point A to point B to get the best a city has to offer yet it's not as much focus on downtown as other areas in Houston.
Houston downtown mirrors the city as awhole. Spread out, lack of planning and just building as you go along with the flow. That's part of the creation of the tunnels. I can understand having the tunnels for several reasons but it takes alot of life out of the street. Hell, I can stand the heat it's not like alot of the elderly are using the tunnel system. And it's nothing that special at all about the interior of the tunnels. No beautification or anything. It's all catered to the working man and woman. "All work and no play" Houston which I feel doesn't fit the whole city but it can explain most of downtown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago3rd
Keep thinking Houston is Lufkin and I get your point. But those of us from larger cities know it can have both a strong core and an auto loving people. Those of us who aren't from here.....we see Houston's potential and it is just bursting to happen. We see it in upper kirby and other denser developements in the loop. Its coming. Macy's is a let down. And is not the right direction to go.
Exactly(minus again Macy's)It can have a strong core and auto loving people. If you build it people will come. It's a sneakers boutique right across the street from the Pavilions and it's been in business for about 3 or 4 years now. It's other local establishments in downtown that attract people from all over the city. Forever 21 attracts people. House of Blues attracts people. Lucky Strikes attract people.
It's a lack of planning and concentration. Certain parts just feel secluded instead of a better connection with different districts in downtown. Maybe because of downtown Houston size? It's too much potential in DT for the city leaders not to capitalize on it.
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