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I have no idea what the "paleo diet" is suppose to be, but our ancestors didn't have a consistent diet...diet varied by culture and region. The diet outlined by the other poster isn't one that would have been used by pre-agricultural people, for example these people didn't have daily access to meat via domesticated animals.
My point here has little to do with what "diet is the best", instead its about costs. Plant-based sources of protein are, as a whole, much cheaper than animal based sources. Therefore, since you can get all the essential proteins from plants one can save considerably by switching to plant-based protein sources instead of animal-based ones.
Eggs are a great source of protein, they contain all the essential amino acids in the ratios needed by the body. But so does soy and its cheaper. As for digestion, legumes aren't hard on your digestive system though someone will likely get bloated, etc if they eat a bunch of legumes when they don't regularly eat them. Our digestive systems, in particular the bacteria colonies in our colon, change based on what we regularly eat. A vegetarian who eats a 16oz steak will likely have digestive problems as well.
For you saying your point is not about what "diet is the best," you sure seem like you're trying to persuade it by questioning paleo diet, for plant-based protein, for legumes, or for soy.
I don't practice paleo diet, and I just try to follow what I consider to be a good diet(not at all what you think to be a good diet) and slight calorie restriction. I can't eat all healthy or I'll go nuts as I like to have treats now and then or occasional McDonald's french fries.
But regarding your view, just google about soy is bad, and you will find many articles with sources on how soy is terrible for you. You will find many people arguing why legumes are bad too. Legumes just don't agree with lots of people. Probably why many people are allergic to peanuts. Peanuts are legumes if you didn't know.
Also, if you don't need animal-based protein, why do vegans need to take vitamin b12?
but some people think plant-based diet is not healthy, and there's a point to how much you can be frugal.
Sure, some people think that, but its also not true. The science, decades ago, switched from questioning whether vegetarian diets are healthy to instead looking into their health benefits vs non-vegetarian diets. So what you're pointing out here is that inaccurate information on diet can lead you to over-spend on food.
But I'm not suggesting vegetarianism here, I'm just noting that its a perfectly healthy alternative. Someone would realize considerably savings by just cutting out red meat and substituting it with low cost meats (chicken, turkey, etc), eggs and plant-based proteins.
While its certainly true that people hold a variety of beliefs about diets, you keep speaking as if dietary matters are just matters of opinion. The diversity in opinion on diet is largely due to poor information and fad diets, rather than a lack of good science on the topic. The things I've said in this thread are all, scientifically, conclusive.
And to be clear, I don't think nor have I claimed that one needs to be a vegetarian to be healthy. There are a lot of different ways to get the nutrients your body needs, a vegetarian diet being one of them. But there is a growing consensus that red meat and processed meats have negative health consequences even when consumed in "moderation".
Sure, some people think that, but its also not true. The science, decades ago, switched from questioning whether vegetarian diets are healthy to instead looking into their health benefits vs non-vegetarian diets. So what you're pointing out here is that inaccurate information on diet can lead you to over-spend on food.
But I'm not suggesting vegetarianism here, I'm just noting that its a perfectly healthy alternative. Someone would realize considerably savings by just cutting out red meat and substituting it with low cost meats (chicken, turkey, etc), eggs and plant-based proteins.
While its certainly true that people hold a variety of beliefs about diets, you keep speaking as if dietary matters are just matters of opinion. The diversity in opinion on diet is largely due to poor information and fad diets, rather than a lack of good science on the topic. The things I've said in this thread are all, scientifically, conclusive.
And to be clear, I don't think nor have I claimed that one needs to be a vegetarian to be healthy. There are a lot of different ways to get the nutrients your body needs, a vegetarian diet being one of them. But there is a growing consensus that red meat and processed meats have negative health consequences even when consumed in "moderation".
LOL. What you're saying is all scientifically, conclusive? Ok, you just lost all credibility by stating that. I mean, all credibility.
and you will find many articles with sources on how soy is terrible for you. You will find many people arguing why legumes are bad too. Legumes just don't agree with lots of people. Probably why many people are allergic to peanuts.
You're not going to find many scientifically founded articles about how soy is "terrible for you". In fact, find me one such article. There is some concern that eating large amounts of soy can have consequences, but that can be said of many foods. A good diet, whether vegetarian or not, should not be dominated by one food.
As for legumes, to say it once more if someone isn't use to eating legumes they are likely to make them bloated and gassy. Legumes aren't hard on your digestive system, nor are there a lot of people that can't consume them. These are just myths based by what I just mentioned, namely the fact that if you don't consume them regularly they can make you bloated, etc if you eat them. In fact, the same can be said of most high fiber foods. If your body is use to a low-fiber diet, eating a lot of fiber one day will likely produce unpleasant results. But longer-term your body will adjust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummbull
Also, if you don't need animal-based protein, why do vegans need to take vitamin b12?
Because the natural sources of b12 have been stripped of it. For example, natural water sources contain b12 but it removed when sanitized. The issues surrounding b12 are all fuzzy though, while its claimed that vegans are typically deficient in B12 there aren't any major health consequences observed in the vegan population. That is, when you do longevity studies vegans actually live longer than healthy meat eaters.
LOL. What you're saying is all scientifically, conclusive? Ok, you just lost all credibility by stating that. I mean, all credibility.
I'm really not concerned with maintaining credibility with you, instead I'm concerned with the actual science. You are focusing on differences of opinion, but this is a scientific matter.
And yes the dietary claims I've made here are scientifically conclusive, that is they are widely agreed on by scientists. The fact that the general public often thinks differently is immaterial.
You're not going to find many scientifically founded articles about how soy is "terrible for you". In fact, find me one such article. There is some concern that eating large amounts of soy can have consequences, but that can be said of many foods. A good diet, whether vegetarian or not, should not be dominated by one food.
As for legumes, to say it once more if someone isn't use to eating legumes they are likely to make them bloated and gassy. Legumes aren't hard on your digestive system, nor are there a lot of people that can't consume them. These are just myths based by what I just mentioned, namely the fact that if you don't consume them regularly they can make you bloated, etc if you eat them. In fact, the same can be said of most high fiber foods. If your body is use to a low-fiber diet, eating a lot of fiber one day will likely produce unpleasant results. But longer-term your body will adjust.
Because the natural sources of b12 have been stripped of it. For example, natural water sources contain b12 but it removed when sanitized. The issues surrounding b12 are all fuzzy though, while its claimed that vegans are typically deficient in B12 there aren't any major health consequences observed in the vegan population. That is, when you do longevity studies vegans actually live longer than healthy meat eaters.
It is laughable to think that there is scientific conclusion on what the best nutrition is. I think I may be arguing with a "know it all" and there is no hope.
Have you ever heard of Inuit diet? They consume approximately 98% animal protein and fat in their diet and according to scientific studies, protect against heart disease and cancer. Inuit diet touted as health tonic
As I've stated earlier, many people believe(including scientists and researchers) in what they believe to be the healthiest nutrition. I personally eat soy and legumes, but there are many people who don't eat them because they think it's not healthy.
With your point about vegans live longer than meat eaters, I just found an article that states the exact opposite: Vegetarians live longer, says study
This article states vegetarians live longer, but participants who occasionally consumed meat have the lowest rate of mortality. It seems vegetarians live long, but not vegans.
But this study doesn't compare against people who would eat more in Paleo style, or Inuit diet, or other variations of diet so it's not conclusive just like with any other studies where it's hardly ever conclusive.
Right, so just as I said, there is some concern that eating too much soy can have negative health consequences but that is a far cry from being "terrible for you". But, as you can see from the articles, even here the information is all inconclusive since its largely based on studies with rats, etc and not humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummbull
It is laughable to think that there is scientific conclusion on what the best nutrition is.
I'm not sure why this would be laughable, after all this will be achieved one day. But I've never suggested such a thing, instead I've suggested that the particular claims I've made in this thread have wide spread agreement among scientists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummbull
Have you ever heard of Inuit diet?
Yes, but what relevance does this have to anything I've suggested? That is, how does the meat heavy diet of the Inuit have anything to do with whether a vegetarian diet is healthy? My point here is about costs, not the degree to which meat diets are healthy. As I've said many times, even if you assume that red meat, etc has no health consequences, plant-based protein sources are much cheaper.
With that said, the Inuit have low life expectancies so its hardly a diet to model anything on. The Inuit have this diet out of necessity, not choice.
but there are many people who don't eat them because they think it's not healthy.
So what? That says nothing about whether or not they are indeed healthy...and on this matter there is widespread agreement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummbull
With your point about vegans live longer than meat eaters, I just found an article that states the exact opposite: Vegetarians live longer, says study
This article states vegetarians live longer, but participants who occasionally consumed meat have the lowest rate of mortality. It seems vegetarians live long, but not vegans.
That article shows no such thing. It is comparing three groups to the general population (which are meat-eaters): 1.) vegans, 2.) vegetarians, 3.) semi-vegetarians (low meat consumption). It found that all three groups did better than the general population, but that group 1.) did the poorest of the 3.
Furthermore, this article isn't actually looking at life-expectancy, instead morality rates. These are two different things.
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