Nasal cancer (feces, how much, vet, barking)

[alessiagrasso]

I'm so sorry about sheldon and all the other dogs...

My wonderful doggie is a mixed race (or half-caste, sorry for my English)....
They called me yesterday from the radiation oncology center in the north of Italy and I'm taking info about an appartment there (so expensive!!!).

They told me my dog is for sure a candidate for a palliative treatment (as she should be in stage 1 of the disease) and probably also for a curative one but the problem is that the tumor is "between the eyes" so I need to consider the potential side-effetcs carefully.
I need to go there in about 10 days for a complete and clearer prognosys.

For tallmomma: what happen to Tillie's eyes (or eye?) after the treatment and how and when did she loose her sight? (did the sweetie become totally blind or just one eye sight? how did you treat her for the eyes' problem immediatly after the curative radiation treatment?). Did she experience a lot of "acute/severe" side-effets after the 20 sessions?

I live alone and work all day and I'm wondering how it would be the looking after her after the treatment considering that there's nobody home..

Another question to you all:
I've noticed another weird symptom which is apparently not connected with the nose... I noticed, in the last few days, that from the moment when she needs to "poo" and the moment when she actually does... it takes a few minutes and even less... infact it happened more than once that she did it home and not outside... feeling guilty afterwards (poor sweetie!!!).... this had never happened before and I'm afraid this might be related to metastasys or something else (apart from the nose) we haven't seen yet...

Any exeprience with that??

All opinion and experiences (and advice) from pet owners who went through CURATIVE radiation are appeciated... I want to arrive to the oncology center already with an idea.. I mean... if they tell me that she is a candidate also for curative radiation treatment I need to decide immediatly to save money and stay there directly...

Thanks to all of you, this forum is my only "support" from the external world...

Alessia... and obviously Luna...

[Dashdog]

Alesssia,

Instead of sending you another DM I will post my answers to your questions you sent me here as they may help others too.

I and many others here were dealing with adenocarcinoma. You said Luna has transitional cell carcinoma ( TCC). TCC is a cancer that occurs in the epithelial cells which are skin cells that line the inside of the nose and bladder and other places as well. I think in the nose they are the cells that produce mucus. I think TCC is most often found as a urinary bladder cancer but I know it can occur in the nose as well.

In the above post you said that Luna has had trouble defecating ( pooing) , does she strain alot? how about when she pee's? I Ask because if she had a mass in her bladder she could have those types of problems. I do not know where TCC tends to spread but wonder if it could spread form the bladder to the nasal cavity? A quick inexpensive bladder scan ( ultra sound) could see if her bladder is normal. .At least they are inexpensive at my regular vet as he used them on Dash to check for bladder stones as Dash did have bladder stones years before the cancer and had surgery and thank goodness no more stones. It is just something to think about since the most common site for TCC is the bladder. I have a friend that has a dog that has bladder TCC for 2 years now and they put the dog on piroxicam which is a non steroidal anti- inflammatory drug and caused the tumor to shrink and it has not grown any since then. In the beginning the cancer also made her dog rather lethargic.


here are the questions you asked me :

'Sorry but I have got some more questions: How was taking care of your dog after the threatment?? Many drugs or medicines? Was the follow up difficult? When did the symptoms appear again after radiation?Were they the same as before the treatment?Did your dog experience facial deformity?
Is IMRT the same as linear accelerator device? '

I did not have any problems taking care of Dash as he needed no extra care. The only thing I had to do was hold food on the days he got his treatments as he had to be put under anesthesia for them and after his treatment he could only have a little water until he woke up all the way as they gave the treatment and woke him up so he could walk and he came right home with me. He would be a little sleepy for a few hours so I did have to keep an eye on him.

He was put on Piroxicam before the IMRT began and we opted to stay on it as he tolerated it very well and it has anti tumor properties( and as I said can work well in TCC of the bladder). He got it once a day.

Follow ups were quick visits to the oncologist not very frequent but just so he could see how Dash was doing.

after treatment Dash did very little of the reverse sneezing . He did tend to have more nasal infections and did drip blood not big nose bleeds but just drips off and on. He had the treatment in May. I think it was July when I decided to start him on what is called metronomic therapy. Piroxicam was the first drug and since we were already on that we added very low doses of Cytoxin which in a regular dose is a chemo drug but we were not using it as chemo and it caused no bad side effects, The metronomic therapy is designed to cut off the blood suppy to a tumor thus stop it from growing and slowing it down or maybe even killing it. I decided to start it then rather then wait until we knew the cancer was active again. Dash was a dog that could eat anything and never get sick so he tolerated the treatment very well. It was just pills that he got at home. The oncologist did want blood tests once a month which my normal vet drew then sent the oncologist the results as the oncologist was a 45-60 minute drive for me depending on traffic. I will say the labs were stable and my vet did think they were too frequent but did them because that is what the oncologist wanted.

Dash did not have any facial deformity before the treatment as his cancer was up in the sinus near his left eye. In Feb of the next year he did develop some swelling that went back down then reappeared a few weeks later . The oncologist said he only had a few weeks left when I called to tell him as he felt it would grow very fast. It grew slowly and did not seem to bother Dash later it did start to itch . I did post pictures in this thread. The swelling bothered people but Dash went on being his normal happy fun loving self.

In Oct I did take Dash to a holistic vet and put him on neoplasene as a nose drop. neoplasene can cause cancer cells to die and on the outside of the body they fall off.I am not sure I would use it inside the body again as if the cancer did indeed die ( and he did sneezes big chunks of what looked like it could be part sof a tumor out at times) had some got trapped inside there could be a huge infection. I do wonder at times if his swelling was a result of that and not the cancer? The swelling did split open before I put him to sleep and a large mass popped up and in the short time that I went to get my camera it fell off and either he or Jazz ate it so I will never know was that the tumor and if all that swelling just infection or was it the cancer eating its way out? Whichever it was it was the nasty infection that we could not get to even begin to clear up that lead to my decision to put him to sleep as he had a facial wound that despite antibiotics and raw honey dressings just remained a pit of pus and infection and he may have been becoming septic thus the change in him. So that is one part of his cancer journey I would not do again.

Yes IMRT is a linear accelerator. As such they were able to avoid the left eye as much as possible and sort of shape the beam around it. Since he only had the 5 days of Palliative treatment I was told he would probably develop a cataract but that takes about 9 months so vet said if he lived long enough to develop one he was a lucky dog. He lived until Sept of the next year and no he did not seem to have a cataract. The swelling did eventually close his eye which was hard to see but once again it did not appear to bother him. I think I posted a photo of him with his one eye gopher hunting and that big old silly grin on his face.

With radiation you get side effects of fast growing cells which would be things like skin cells thus the normal radiation burns you see with standard radiation and they happen pretty soon then there can be damage to slower growing cells like the cells in the eyes that in the case of IMRT can cause cataracts and they take months as I was told about 9 months.

I think the hardest thing in the time between the IMRT and having him put to sleep were the infections as he would get one and crash until the antibiotics and there were a couple bad ones near the end that I was not sure he would survive but he did and it usually did not take too long for him to be back to his old self.He was a tough dog . Had it happened to my other dog Jazz I do not know if I would have done treatment as though she is my once in a life time very special dog she has fear issues and having to deal with the vets that much would have been miserable for her and she probably would not have tolerated the metronomic therapy as well as her stomach is more sensitive so you do have to factor in the Can my dog deal with this? Dash was a tank as he was a real fighter that just maintained his happy attitide.

Jazz did develop a nerve sheath sarcoma ( cancer) in Oct 2008. I did opt to have it removed it was golf ball size on her chest and they tend to have alot of fingers so can be difficult to remove. My vet did feel he got it all and I had decided no follow up treatment and tomorrow she turns 14. But I will say when I heard that she too had cancer my heart just sank as I thought I would be saying good bye to both but you just never know.So choose what you think is right for Luna and what would allow her to have the best quality of life as quality of life should be # 1. My mom stopped her chemo when the chemo made her quality of life suck knowing she would die much sooner when she did so. She had stage IV lung cancer so treatment was only buying time. She said she just did not want to live if it meant she could not have the energy to go out and enjoy her life.Being fatigued to the point she had no life was not living and while I miss her I do respect her choice and it was always with me when I was dealing with Dash's cancer. As long as his quality of life remained high we would continue and when I felt he was no longer enjoying life we would stop. I am greatful I had a dog that was such a joyful tough guy and did manage to find joy in his life right up until the end as he seemed to live life to its fullest right up until the end when he did slow down.


I will be sending alot of positve thoughts and prayers to you and Luna and don't be afraid of asking the doctors lots of questions as I have always found that they seem to enjoy discussing things with me. Hugs to you and Luna, Jan

[eginalsk]

Alessia,
I'm sorry to hear about Luna--canine cancer sure stinks.

Scout had both curative (definitive) and palliative IMRT. His tumor was initially very small and on the right side. He had no acute side effects from the definitive treatment until the very end. I actually thought we had got away without any, but my oncologist guaranteed they would follow. He continued his high level of excerise throughout treatment. Near his last treatments, the oncologist noted sores in his mouth although he never showed any discomfort from them. A few days following the last treatment, he developed sores on his face--from around his eye and down the center of his muzzle. We had to keep an Elizabethan collar on him to minimize scratching (which he did do when it was almost all healed!). He lost all fur in that same area as well. We also had some eye issues caused by dryness during this period. He ended up with a scratch on his cornea, which I believe is very common but treatable. He was very lethargic and refused walks, mostly laying around on the couch. His appetite remained good. Other than pain medication, he was on no other drugs. My oncologist told me when we started that at 2 weeks post-treatment most owners are asking, "Why did I ever do this?" and then at 3 weeks, things get much better. That was true. Scout hiked our local mountain 3 weeks after treatment and only got better from there. Eye dryness continued to be an issue and he ended up using Optimmune twice daily (still using it). He developed a cataract as a result of the radiation about 9 months following radiation and is now mostly blind in that eye (although you'd never know it). He was anesthetized daily, but at a very light dose and he had no issues from it.

Scout had three treatments of IMRT this past fall. The tumor was quite large, and we opted to shield his left eye. This meant it would be protected from the radiation but that we were not targetting the entire tumor. We went one a week for three weeks. There were no side effects, and no medications required.

One thing to consider that my oncologist mentioned. Scout had 10 days of definitive radiation at a higher dose than usual (my oncologist's protocol). This drastically decreased the cost and time committment. You may check into different protocols. She also noted that one of the reasons she uses this protocol is that nasal tumors seem to respond better to higher doses, which is what is given in the palliative treatments. I'm not sure if this is another reason why Tillie and Dash responded so well to palliative IMRT.

We are now two and a half years from the onset of symptoms and living day to day. We have good days and bad days, which is such a reality with this disease. We've done it all, so please let me know if I can help you any further.

Erica

[alessiagrasso]

Thanks to all.

Yes you are right Dashdog, it's better to write and ask here... so I'm copying and pasting my last direct message to tallmomma where I asked more or less the same questions but from her experience. After that I'll tell you more about you have asked me.
I know that the answers to some of my questions are already in the thread but I haven't read it all yet... even 'cause English is not my native language and I need more time to read and completely understand.... but I'm keeping on reading...

COPY AND PASTE:

Thanks a lot tallmomma.... yes! the kind of cancer and position are different... plus ... tillie also went through an operation which I guess incresead her survival time.

Yes... I'm deciding wheter to treat luna's cancer with radiation or not and we do have an appointent in 10 days to talk to the oncologist at the radiation center. She should be candidate for both treatment (palliative and curative) but before beeing sure they need to see the dog and perfectly stage the tumor (for now they say it should be stage 1).

I see that all of you are happy you made your dogs live more and with quality time... but by reading the posts (in general... I haven't read them all) I've got the feeling that the "survival time" of the dog is a continuous running to the vet for different kind of problems... maybe I've got this feeling as you all wrote and posted especially when there was a problem... at least that's what I hope and maybe you can tell me... from your experience.
Was there any period of time when the dog .. was just happy and back to his "normal life"??how long?

I don't have enough money and time as well... for this therapy I risk to loose my job which is a big problem as I need to ask for a loan... the therapy here costs 4000 euro (or 2000 the palliative) + I need to pay an hotel up there for a month where luna and I will be totally alone fighting against her cancer... I'm so afraid tallmomma... and I'm even ashamed to say... I feel so stupid and "childish".

How would her time left be later on? Will I be able to look after her working 12 hours a day and living on my own without any family and friend? What do you think?
Do they need a LOT of cares and treatments even after the therapy??

How were the days during the curative treatment? Was it so hard for the dog and for you??

Sorry for the questions... and thanks for listening to me... I know that you all know what I feel and am afraid of... especially beacuse no doctor gives hope... they all say that it's impossible to survive nasal cancer... maybe a few years ago they didn't even know... now they say they know it for sure....


Alessia & Luna

[Catrick]

Best of luck to you and Luna. You have found wonderful and helpful advice from the great people on this forum.

We are all pulling for you. Best wishes and good thoughts are coming to you and Luna.

[alessiagrasso]

answers to dashdog:

I've got your same idea (as I've read that TCC is a typical cancer of the bladder) in the sense that even before the reverse sneezing occured in August my Luna was drinking and peeing more (this was for almost 1 year and a half/2 years).. but I thought it might be due her previous "struvites problems" (which was cured and healed thanks to c/d hills product) and my vet of the time agreed and told me to give her that food every once in a while to prevent the "struvites" problem to be totally back. The problem kept on beeing on and off and she had it especially when I was home so we thought it might even be a behavoiural problem... and now.. yes. she is still having it.

I'm so confused and looking forward to going to the oncological center in Bologna to know excactly what's going on...

A few days ago we had a "total abdomen ultrasound scan" done but not in the oncological center but in a normal vet center so I'm not sure wheter I can trust the result or not (especially because her bladder was not full but they did it anyway) or if I need to repeat the ultrasound scan once I go to the oncological center...

In anycase the ultrasound results say that everything is "clean" (this was less than a week ago).

Other weird symptoms I've noticed (sometimes): difficulties in waking her up like she is in a very "deep sleep" (twice or 3 times in the last months, once I was actually panicking for this ) + it's like... she is having a lot of dreams every time she sleeps (she moves a lot her paws.. face etc).

As far as you all know...is there any other pet who has nasal TCC?

I'm afraid the situation is even worst that I think... and getting crazy thinking about this...

thanks to all of you.. I hope you can understand what I write even though my English is so.. so Italian.. I'm making a huge effort to explain things and symptoms in English...

Alessia

[alessiagrasso]

for dashdog:

you asked me if she strains a lot when defecating (or peeing)... if I understand the verb in the proper way:

no. the problem is the opposite: form when she needs to poo and when she actually does... it's extremely quick.. it's like she can't restrain/hold back (?) it for long (as it was in the past) and so it happens that she defecates in the house (can't wait enough to go out).
The "pee problem" is ... she's peeing huge pees and more frequently.

I hope everything is clear.

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL OF YOU, WONDERFUL PEOPLE AND GREAT PET LOVERS...

Alessia

[joycez]

Alessia and Luna,
Just wanted you to know that I ( and Sheldon from up above) are praying for you and thinking positive thoughts. I hope you find this forum helpful. I know exactly what you are going through with the cost ( I too took out a loan and friends donated money) and I had to miss work when my sweet rottie was sick. Stay strong and positive!

[alessiagrasso]

thanks joycez,

I need to take a month off if I decide fot the treatment. The center is up in the north (400 Km) and I can't drive there every day.... it would be 800 km a day (I don't know in miles)!
I also know that I MUST BE VERY STRONG to be there alone (no friends, no family and not even my place) but if there's hope of quality time and good survival ... I'll make it!! I OWE IT TO HER!!!

Just... I'm looking forward to know more about this TCC... as most of pets (at least on this forum) were diagnosed with different tumors... and I have no idea of how aggressive it is.
On the telephone they told me she should be stage 1 and, if this is confirmed once I go there in person, she should have a life expetancy of:

-about a year (palliative IMRT)
-18 months/2 years (curative IMRT)...

but nobody can guarantee anything as we all know...

THANKS



THANKS AGAIN,

Alessia & Luna

I'll try but it's so hard... THANKS.

[alessiagrasso]

sorry if I keep on asking questions about your experience but I was wondering (about radiation therapy):


-Are there cases where the survival time was much shorter that expected?

-Are there cases where the quality of life was worse than expected? or situations where the dog experienced very severy side-effects from radiation?


thanks.....