Dayton Ohio: Does it still suck there? (Columbus, Cleveland: living in, prices)

[jlawrence01]

Originally Posted by Ohioan58

I never, ever get the infatuation with Milano's other than as a UD tribal memory thing. When I went to UD their one store on Brown had delicious, greasy, savory subs and really good pizza and the joint felt special. Due to its location Milano's could be integrated into a night of barhopping around there.

There is a huge difference between the quality of bubs at Milano's in the '70s and 80s and the current product which is closer to Subway. When they were an independent single store, the quality of the meat was excellent. Now, it is just a disappointment - it helps if you have been drinking to get the sub down.

[Dayton Sux]

Does it still suck here? Or is it getting suckier?

Cityfolk was sort of a continuing theme during my 25 years in Dayton:


Cityfolk cancels 2013-2014 season, festival

....the other recently cancelled summer festival was Mountain Days, which was also a pay-admission thing. The Cityfolk Festival used to be free in the last years, with this year, I think, being the first they charged admissions for).

This leaves the Celtic Festival as the last of the larger (in terms of attendence) free events in the city.

BTW, one of the last Cityfolk directors ended up in Louisville, where he is managing the Clifton Community Center. Guess he saw this coming and jumped ship before it sank.

Louisville has some great free festivals. Two of the popular ones are art fairs, which have been going on since the 1970s...longevity has its place....

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by Dayton Sux

I used to think this, as a sort of rationalizations as to why Dayton so bland and desolate, until I visited Lexington, KY and Portland, ME. Both metropolitan areas are quite a bit smaller than Dayton yet these respective cities seem in much better shape and more "alive" in various ways...so it isnt raw population size (or lack therof) that accounts for urban livability, etc...

Then why don't you move to one of those?

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by jlawrence01

What do you expect?

For many years, Dayton (like Youngstown and Mansfield) had plentiful manufacturing jobs. High school students were pretty much DISCOURAGED from pursuing higher education as manufacturing wages were HIGHER than many college graduates were getting after graduation, often much higher.

That all worked as long as there were manufacturing jobs. However, GM has relocated nearly every job in Dayton to several facilities in Mexico (and has had a lot of their executives recruiting other industries to do the same). Ditto for Delphi.

That's true. Those jobs did pay a lot (with benefits they did get a better deal than a lot of college grads), the skills needed were small (how much knowledge does it take to screw a bolt?), and now they are almost all gone.

There's only about 300 employed at Delphi in Vandalia. In 2007, the region had about 15,00 jobs like this. So the blow should have passed already. In a lot of ways, I think it has.

Originally Posted by jlawrence01

Other manufacturers see Dayton (Detroit, Flint, Mansfield) as toxic because manufacturing people in those towns EXPECT UAW-style wages and work rules. What profitable industry wants to deal with that when they can locate a facility 75 miles west or 150 miles south of Dayton and have a MUCH BETTER business climate.

True to an extent, but the tides are changing. Michigan is now a right-to-work state. They will benefit tremendously from that move. The same needs to happen in Ohio, and it can (and probably will) soon. One HUGE benefit of having a Republican-controlled state government, and yet another reason why Taft was a horrible governor.

Most of the jobs in the category now are at "Distribution Centers". Ohio is still getting a fair share of those. Look at Stonequarry Crossing in Vandalia, Park 70 in Springfield, or the new Caterpillar complex in Clayton. They aren't unionized, and they are doing well here.

Originally Posted by jlawrence01

Dayton has perhaps two options. They can sit around and look back and complain about how they were screwed by GM, NCR, etc. If so, it will be the second coming of Mansfield and Youngstown. Or they can start redeveloping the educational system to prepare for new industries much like Pittsburgh has. The advantage Dayton has is that there are two good universities in the area.

With Dayton, the major problem is attitude.

Option 1 was Dayton circa 2000. Option 1 should not even be a consideration to anyone anymore - are we still in 1995? If there is anyone still out there that thinks low-skill manufacturing jobs are coming back, they have rocks for brains. Manufacturing may come back to Ohio, but I can guarantee it will be automated.

I see Option 2 happening now. Slowly, but surely. There's a healthy interest in downtown housing, businesses are moving back into the core city, and large vacant industrial and office facilities throughout the metro are being filled. Part of it is due to the economy coming back across the nation, part of it is due to an active interest in walkable living.

I am a full-time student at a four-year university which is widely known for the wealth of its student body and the trends they set (not saying that includes myself haha). NO ONE I KNOW has ANY interest WHATSOEVER in moving to a suburb or rural location. They want to be downtown. Admittedly, they want that in one of the 3C's, Chicago, NYC, etc., but if they chose to take a job around Dayton, I have full confidence that they would strongly consider living within city limits.

And the city, slowly but surely, is capitalizing on this. Charlie Simms (one of those guys who built the "McMansions") realizes this. That's why he is building downtown. Look at where businesses are moving in this area. In a large part, new ventures are having within city limits or very close to them. Assurant, GE Aviation, Miller Valentine, etc. - they are moving into Dayton. Not Out.

[jlawrence01]

Originally Posted by OHKID

I am a full-time student at a four-year university which is widely known for the wealth of its student body and the trends they set (not saying that includes myself haha). NO ONE I KNOW has ANY interest WHATSOEVER in moving to a suburb or rural location. They want to be downtown. Admittedly, they want that in one of the 3C's, Chicago, NYC, etc., but if they chose to take a job around Dayton, I have full confidence that they would strongly consider living within city limits.

Everyone wants to live in the big city when they are in their 20s. Then they get married, have children, and discover that the big city public schools don't meet their educational standards. Or they realize that living in the Big 3s on their salary is not doable.

Or in my case, get tired of the endless crime.

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by Ohioan58

Let me put my native-son spin on things. People I grew up with in Dayton all have what I'd call "stay prest brains". They conform, they expect the nominal, they don't create or invent or stick out. As a creative person with brains I feel like an utter misfit around there. It's a city of basement dwelling conformist Morlocks who really miss their soul deadening GM jobs.

Since the 70s when I grew up here, Dayton has been boring and stifling. Today, it's deteriorating and rather nasty in addition.

I really wish "The Real Dayton, Ohio" guy (Drexel Dave) had continued that blog to the present day. He could cover pressing local news like bike thieving dwarfs and crazy Kettering bike ladies. (Just Google the latter... pretty amazing.)

Every city, every culture, every organization has that kind of a culture built in among some individuals. Agreed in Dayton that this mentality has been stronger than in other places.

Why? Unions. Bad work ethic. No rewards for creativity or progress. We were a mini-Detroit.

The key word is "were". Those jobs are gone, they aren't coming back. And we are all better off.


Face it - you and I both know it is impossible to compete as an individual unless you are willing to think outside of the box to beat your competition. That, in a large part, is what a free-market economy is all about. It fosters a competitive spirit, which inspires change and progression that benefits the greater good.

Unions stifle that by putting everyone at the same level. If you're a slug, then you are set - you are elevated to same level as the overachiever without doing jacksh!t for work. If you are an overachiever, then you are screwed and you can't break out of the mold. And that's been heavily embedded in the Dayton culture.

The good thing is that I can see this mentality starting to leave, die, or die off. The slugs can't find jobs, so they move south - good riddance. Other whiners die, because they are old and drink or abuse drugs to achieve an earlier death. Good riddance to them too - I don't want to pay for them with my tax dollars. Some cause problems by being criminals, but the slugs go to jail, because even a criminal needs ambition to not get caught.

Others slugs shut up and realize they need to work to better themselves and their community. They need to take pride in what they have so they can make it better to achieve the goals they want to achieve. There are a lot of people that fit into this category. That's why enrollment at Sinclair spiked during the recession, and now the area has a more highly-skilled workforce than ever before.

The ones I feel sorry for in the plant closings are the parents of young families who lost their jobs and have to juggle school, a low-wage temporary job, and family. I have a lot of respect for anyone who has been or is going through that type of situation.

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by jlawrence01

Everyone wants to live in the big city when they are in their 20s. Then they get married, have children, and discover that the big city public schools don't meet their educational standards. Or they realize that living in the Big 3s on their salary is not doable.

Or in my case, get tired of the endless crime.

A lot of my friends came from private schools. They are a lot of private school options around Dayton, and many are quite good.

And it is true that living in a larger city is out of reach for many families. That is why I think Dayton city living has an edge - it's very affordable. Does our downtown have as many amenities as NYC, Chicago, or even Cleveland? HECK NO

But can you get loft living in either of those places for $120k - $150k? HECK NO. Take your pick.



And crime varies widely. There were probably better sections with less crime in whatever city you are referencing. It can be mitigated through research of a city.

[jlawrence01]

Originally Posted by OHKID

But can you get loft living in either of those places for $120k - $150k? HECK NO. Take your pick.

And crime varies widely. There were probably better sections with less crime in whatever city you are referencing. It can be mitigated through research of a city.

If you are living in Dayton, why would you spend $120-150k on a loft when there are hundreds of houses in the $20-50k range in decent neighborhoods?

As for researching which neighborhoods have crime, it is not as easy as you want to believe. The Realtors won't tell you. The urban pioneers will deny it until they are a victim. When I hear the term "up and coming" neighborhood, it almost always has a pretty high crime rate.

[SWOH]

For Dayton, try this out:

http://www.daytonohiopolice.com/CrimeMap/

It is possible to view crime up to a 2-month time frame for any city neighborhood.

[CarpathianPeasant]

Originally Posted by OHKID

For Dayton, try this out:

http://www.daytonohiopolice.com/CrimeMap/

It is possible to view crime up to a 2-month time frame for any city neighborhood.

Many cities have these, including Cincinnati the last time I looked. A bunch of stuff pops up there, too.