Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Go Google anything Harlan Ellison wrote about Dayton when he visited here in the 70s. He's always a really pissed-off guy but he ran head first into the entrenched don't rock the boat vibe of Dayton.
I've got to check this out!
Quote:
used to say the kids in Kentucky were taught the 3 Rs; reading, riting and route 75 north.
....readin' writin' and Route 23 (US 23). cf Dwight Yoakam song of the same title.
Quote:
Then we have the rock n' roll mayor, Paul Leonard. He went on to be Lt Gov. and last I heard he was an animal rights lawyer in California. The gay bar scene started under his watch.
Actually no. In the early 1980s the most popular gay bars were in Miamisburg and Kettering. And there were gay bars in Dayton well before the 1980s....one of the oldest, if not the oldest, in Ohio is in Dayton. Back around 1969 there even was one on the 2nd floor of the Victoria Theatre (shared that floor with the Shwarz School of Dance).
When I moved here in 1988 out of six gay bars in the area only two were within the city limits. The contraction of the gay scene into the downtown area was a recent phenomenon, of the mid-late 1990s and 2000s. The bar count has also contracted from 6 to 4.
As for Paul Leonard, I recall him as Lt Governer (vaguely) and didnt see a thing "rock n roll" about him. He seemed like the generic bland political type to me. Did he actually play in a rock band? I do know of political (or local government) figures who really were in rock bands....but Leonard?
My pick for the big lost opportunity as mayor was Tony Capizzi. He had the right stuff, but fell afoul of the local conservatism and lost a lot of potential voters with some sort of anti-gun ordance. That he was an Italian from Rochester NY probably hurt him too (too much an outsider, too "hot" for Dayton...but that being said he was elected to commission, so....)
Capizzi reminded me of some of these charismatic hotshot mayors that you see from time to time, like Jerry Abramson down in Louisville and maybe a few others....and he did have the vision for the baseball thing. He apparently heard about Camden Yards and what a revolution that was in ballpark design, and the rise in popularity in minor league ball....well before anyone here in town did. Gotta hand it to him...he had the right idea...led the pack with this.
But people get the leadership they deserve, and you can see see Dayton is pretty poorly led (but actually fairly well managed....a city that is such a basket case HAS to be fairly well managed to survive as long as it has without going into recievership)....
The whites left effectively giving the city to the blacks. The briars didnt go far so that any talk of doing what Indianapolis did was shot down by the 1st ring of suburbs. Hey, they had just moved to get away from them.
What makes Dayton >not< Detroit is the degree which this didn't happen.
Unlike Detroit, when they insituted bussing and when the blacks took political control (via McGee)(& which they still have if they can get organized again), the whites didn't decamp en mass for suburbia.
What happened here (probably for the same reason that it happened with the blacks) was the formation of white urban underclass, which filtered down into the city of Dayton, mainly east and (old) north Dayton, and maybe a few other select areas. Thus something somewhat unusual...concentrated white poverty/low income groups in an urban setting.
So the city became a sort of indian reservation, a bantustan if you will, for the great unwashed of the Miami Valley...of both races. Which accounts for Dayton not becoming a "majority minority city" like Detroit, Flint, Camden, etc, though, according to urban policy expert David Rusk it joins these places as being "beyond the point of no return".
Politically, city government is the hollow prize for whichever voting bloc had the power to take control. And as I said the blacks probably have the power to do this if they are organized enought & have enough turnout to vote en-block for certain candidates. Of course political power does not equate to economic power. Which is why I (borrowing from others) refer to city government of these urban basket cases as the hollow prize.
Walked off and did not get to my point. Ring towns like "the Dayton area" dont function very well. The center city has to viable, mostly for support services. Others could probably explain why far better than I could. But that is why rust belt towns that were older when the industrial growth hit where hemmed in and died. Bigger center cities have had a better chance to fight back because they had more room. Dayton is just too small.
Agreed with your first statements. For a better discussion on why the center city has to be viable, check out Urban Ohio. Many substantive threads on the topic, especially in the context of Ohio / rust belt cities.
However, I will give you some pushback on why "Dayton is just too small"? Any particular basis for that comment? What does size have to do with viability?
What makes Dayton >not< Detroit is the degree which this didn't happen.
Unlike Detroit, when they insituted bussing and when the blacks took political control (via McGee)(& which they still have if they can get organized again), the whites didn't decamp en mass for suburbia.
By then they were already gone. Between 1960 and 1970 the population dropped 20k. Between 1970 and 1980 the population dropped by 50k. They didnt wait for busing to start. Measuring what happened after busing started does not tell the tale of the effect of busing. Very true that the whites that stayed were generally low middle class on down. Except, of course, for some enclaves of city workers and enlightened hopers.
Agreed with your first statements. For a better discussion on why the center city has to be viable, check out Urban Ohio. Many substantive threads on the topic, especially in the context of Ohio / rust belt cities.
However, I will give you some pushback on why "Dayton is just too small"? Any particular basis for that comment? What does size have to do with viability?
When GM turned Frigidaire into an assembly plant, or for that matter when they put Frigidaire there, was there anyplace in the city of Dayton it would have been possible to put that plant. No. Same with Research Park. The industrial areas of Dayton were developed generally early in the 20th century when big business was smaller and residential areas were right outside the gate. To effectively regain the lost business, the backbone of any city, they would have had to bulldoze lots of people out. Could not do it. They did not have the acreage to replace those businesses.
My pick for the big lost opportunity as mayor was Tony Capizzi. He had the right stuff, but fell afoul of the local conservatism and lost a lot of potential voters with some sort of anti-gun ordance. That he was an Italian from Rochester NY probably hurt him too (too much an outsider, too "hot" for Dayton...but that being said he was elected to commission, so....)
Capizzi reminded me of some of these charismatic hotshot mayors that you see from time to time, like Jerry Abramson down in Louisville and maybe a few others....and he did have the vision for the baseball thing. He apparently heard about Camden Yards and what a revolution that was in ballpark design, and the rise in popularity in minor league ball....well before anyone here in town did. Gotta hand it to him...he had the right idea...led the pack with this.
But people get the leadership they deserve, and you can see see Dayton is pretty poorly led (but actually fairly well managed....a city that is such a basket case HAS to be fairly well managed to survive as long as it has without going into recievership)....
Interesting stuff!
Too bad Capizzi didn't make it into the top spot, although with the city manager form of government it does make it hard for the mayor to have a ton of power. Not sure whether to like the current form of government or not here.... Even though it would be nice on occasion to have a more powerful and centralized form of leadership to keep the city on the same page, I'm still very afraid of what Nan Whaley is going to do to the Arcade or other historic buildings in town, for instance (heck, I just wish we could have kept Leitzell longer, he was awesome!)
But going off the LGBT community comments, interesting recent article from the DBJ:
... with 418 LGBT identifying couples within city limits, Dayton is definitely not that bad of a place to be if you are LGBT. Nothing like Columbus, the LGBT mecca of Ohio with over 2,800 LGBT couples, but there is definitely an identifiable community here.
When GM turned Frigidaire into an assembly plant, or for that matter when they put Frigidaire there, was there anyplace in the city of Dayton it would have been possible to put that plant. No. Same with Research Park. The industrial areas of Dayton were developed generally early in the 20th century when big business was smaller and residential areas were right outside the gate. To effectively regain the lost business, the backbone of any city, they would have had to bulldoze lots of people out. Could not do it. They did not have the acreage to replace those businesses.
Ah, I see where you are going. So you are saying Dayton city limits are constrained / no potential for annexation.
Nowadays, a large, new plant the size of GM Moraine could be located within Dayton city limits along the Trotwood connector. But that would be the only spot.
There were substantive talks in 2011 to begin looking into a consolidated form of city/ county government here similar to what was done in Louisville KY. If the combination was anything like Louisville, Dayton would be combined with the surrounding communities in a shared government. This would also be similar to what currently exists with Indianapolis and Charlotte NC, if I remember correctly, but not like Columbus with its aggressive annexation policy. Here's the DDN article on it from 2011:
However, I do not know the specifics of the specific proposal now, or if it is even continuing to be pursued. I can definitely see this being more along the lines of something that would have gotten done under a Leitzell administration rather than a Whaley administration, but then again I may be pleasantly surprised and see this come to light soon like what happened with Midpark. Wouldn't hold out hope though...
...I will give you some pushback on why "Dayton is just too small"? Any particular basis for that comment? What does size have to do with viability?
This isn't really my discussion, but I can't resist chiming in. Nodding in agreement to the various history lessons in this thread, chronicling Dayton's mismanagement, it still seems to me that a city of this size and type would be fighting an uphill battle, even with the most enlightened administration.
Dayton has been too closely associated with the automotive industry. So many of those innovative tool-and-die shops ultimately connect to the automotive supply chain. All cities with close connection to automotive or steel have been in decline nationwide. Size is a factor, because a city has to be sufficiently large to diversify beyond 1-2 industries. It has to be sufficiently large to market itself as a hotspot for insurance/finance/consultancy, which is to say, the white-collar growth-drivers. Dayton has a large and commodious airport, but it can't attract airlines to house their hubs there. The city is just too small. With the intersection of the I-75 and I-70 - two hugely important national highways - Dayton could be a center for trucking, shipping and distribution. But again, it's just too small. Instead, the transportation scene is going in the wrong direction. I live not far from the town of Wilmington, southeast of the Dayton metro area. Wilmington's airport was a hub for DHL. Well, only a few years ago (5?), DHL left. Now the airport stands empty.
Could anybody give examples of Midwestern cities with population under 200,000, who are neither state capitals nor university-towns, which have managed to thrive in the past 20 years? I can think of only one true success story anywhere in the Midwest: Chicago. And surely it would be ludicrous for Dayton to aspire to mimic Chicago's recipe for success - not because Dayton lacks the civic leadership, but because it's just too small.
Not the Midwest, but Chattanooga went from post-manufacturing wasteland to a major vacation destination.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
